Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    • Recent Topics

    • I'm unable to send mail pthrough Zoho SMTP programmatically

      This has been working for years, but today it's been offline all day long. I see nothing anywhere on your site about this. I'm not the only one experiencing this. Downdetector has a spike of reports today
    • Can no longer send email via Django site

      This was working fine as of 11/7/25. Now I am unable to send user verification emails from a Django site on a AWS lightsail sever. When a user attempts to register the following error occurs. I have also attempted to send a test email via the shell and
    • unable to send email but able to receive email

      my email address is info@securityforceservices.ca
    • Login to server failing

      When trying to retrieve my mail, I am getting this error message -- Login to server pop.zoho.com with username (my email address) failed. It gives me the option to retry, enter password, or cancel. Then I get this message -- Sending of username did not
    • Configuration failed: 200 response not received for POST request.

      Hello, I am trying to set up a webhook to connect with an Salesforce but I receive the following error from Zoho: Configuration failed: 200 response not received for POST request I have tried testing it on webhook.site as well and receive the same error
    • Zoho Migration Assistant not working

      Hello, I am trying to use you Migration assistant to migrate emails from Rediff to Zoho. I am stuck in the first step. After downloading the migration tool, I copied the link to verify user credentials, however, after pasting the link in the browser,
    • Paid Support Plans with Automated Billing

      We (like many others, I'm sure) are designing or have paid support plans. Our design involves a given number of support hours in each plan. Here are my questions: 1) Are there any plans to add time-based plans in the Zoho Desk Support Plans feature? The
    • Scheduled Reports - Do not send empty report

      Hello, We are intensively using reports in the CRM, especially for sales managers.  When data is empty, they still receive an email. Can you add an option to avoid sending the report when data is empty?
    • Contacts Missing — PeopleSync/Zoho Mail

      English: In our company we use ManageEngine Mobile Device Manager (MDM), Free edition, to manage corporate mobile devices. Our usage policy does not allow personal Google accounts on these devices; therefore, Google account sync is blocked through MDM.
    • Best way to integrate Zoho with mobile app for managing customer requests with real-time notifications?

      Hello, I'm building a solution for a travel company where customers submit requests through a website, and the sales team manages these requests through a mobile app. The Requirement: Customers fill a form on the website (name, email, number of children,
    • Kaizen #57 - Mass Update API in Zoho CRM

      Hello everyone! Welcome back to yet another post in the Kaizen series. This week, we will discuss the Mass Update API in Zoho CRM. In this post, we will cover the following: 1. Introduction 2. Mass Update Records API  3. Schedule Update and Get Status
    • Getting Attachments in Zoho Desk via API

      Is there a way to get attachments into Zoho Desk via an API?      We have a process by which a zoho survey gets sent to the user as a link in a notification.    The survey has several upload fields where they can upload pdf documents.    I've created
    • Multiple currencies - doesn’t seem to work for site visitors / customers

      I am trying to understand how the multiple currency feature works from the perspective of the website visitor who is shopping on my Zoho Commerce site. My site’s base currency is US Dollars (USD) but my store is for customers in Costa Rica and I would
    • Pincode based Product Restriction

      we have different types of products. 1) Very bulky items like plywood. 2) Too delicate items like glass These type of products we want to sell to local customers. Other products we want to supply all over India. There should be an option to restrict products
    • Can multiple agents be assigned to one ticket on purpose?

      Is it possible to assign one ticket to two or more agents at a time? I would like the option to have multiple people working on one ticket so that the same ticket is viewable for those agents on their list of pending tickets. Is something like this currently
    • Related Lists filter

      I have Contacts showing in our Accounts module. I customized the Contacts module with an Employment Status field, with the following picklist options: "Primary Contact", "Secondary Contact", "Active Staff(not a main contact)", and "No longer employed".
    • Standalone custom function not generating logs

      Why dont't standalone custom functions generate logs when the're called from another function? I have some functions (workflow, buttons and blueprint) that have common parts, so I put that part in a standalone function which is called from the others.
    • Add "Reset MFA" Option for Zoho Creator Client Portal Users

      Hello Zoho Creator Team, We hope you are doing well. We would like to request an important enhancement related to Multi-Factor Authentication (MFA) for client portal users in Zoho Creator. Currently, Creator allows us to enforce MFA for portal users,
    • Support Bots and Automations in External Channels

      Hello Zoho Cliq Team, How are you? We actively use Zoho Cliq for collaboration, including with our external developers. For this purpose, external channels are a key tool since they work seamlessly within the same interface as all of our other channels
    • Urgent Security Feature Request – Add MFA to Zoho Projects Client Portal Hello Zoho Projects Team,

      Hello Zoho Projects Team, We hope you are doing well. We would like to submit an urgent security enhancement request regarding the Zoho Projects Client Portal. At this time, as far as we are aware, there is no Multi-Factor Authentication (MFA) available
    • Creator HTML page refresh

      Hi, I have added around 5 different html snippets in single creator page. I understand, I can refresh the entire page from page script using Navigational URLs https://help.zoho.com/portal/en/kb/creator/developer-guide/others/url-patterns/articles/navigational-urls
    • Zoho Desk - Custom Module Related List Columns on Tickets

      I have a custom module in Zoho Desk called Asana Tasks, each task has a lookup to a Ticket. On the Ticket I want to see the columns of the Asana Tasks in the related list . Is there a way to do this? Right now it just has the name of the record and I
    • Google Analytics import data inaccurate (as of October 11, 2025)

      We have Zoho Analytics connected to GA4 to import daily event data. This has been running without issue for a couple of years. However, a month ago we started noticing discrepancies. All data until October 10 lines up perfectly - October 11 onward is
    • What is your opinion of the new UI?

      Hi Everyone, I would like to see what everyone thinks of the new Zoho One Dashboard. I don't get it, but perhaps I'm missing something. What are your thoughts?
    • Zoho mail to Teaminbox

      Hello, We're searching for new mail program. Now I'm testing a bit with zoho mail and team inbox. My findings in the research: Pop mail throught zoho mail is almost instant. Any pop or imap via external provider takes a couple minutes to 15 minutes before
    • What are the OAuth scopes needed to access the Zoho MCP server?

      I think I'm authenticating with the MCP server endpoint successfully using a bearer token but I can't successfully initialize an MCP session. I'm using the official MCP Python sdk (https://github.com/modelcontextprotocol/python-sdk). I get as far as here
    • Account blocked for IMAP use

      Hello, My email client (Evolution) can't sync mail anymore. It gives the error: "Your account is temporarily blocked for IMAP use. This may happen if you exceed the maximum number of simultaneous IMAP connections allowed. Kindly try again after some time."
    • Is SMTP included in the free plan?

      My client has a Zoho Mail Free 14 day trial that ends tomorrow. She has set up a domain email address with SMTP on a third party app and is wondering if it will continue working once her plan downgrades to the free forever plan. Thanks
    • Zoho mail issue.

      I have verified my domain ohhoexpress.online by adding necessary TXT and MX records. But when I am sending email to any external email id, it is showing as zohomail.com. Also while I am sending mail to internal mail id, it is saying user not found whereas
    • My email is blocked from sending

      I get this message when I try to send any message .. > Unable to send message, Reason 554 5.1.8 Email Outgoing Blocked We have urgent emails to send and the issue continues to persist from yesterday. Please help us with this issue as soon as possibl
    • [WEBINAR] Smooth year-end closure with Zoho Books (KENYA)

      Hello there, This webinar is for all Kenyan businesses looking to wrap up their financial year smoothly! Join our free session to learn how Zoho Books can simplify your year-end process. What to expect from this webinar: - All the latest updates in Zoho
    • cannot recieve or send emails

      we are not recieving or cannot send emails.Shows sysytem error
    • Zoho Sites - contact us form

      I have added a contact us form to my website. I wanted to change the layout so I deleted the section of Contact Us form. When I again try to add the section of Contact Us form, it shows error that "This form already exists on this page."  I am unable
    • switching from POP3 to IMAPI do I need to change settings in Web email?

      hi so I am using Outlook with My Zoho mail, also have Verizon email /AOL. they no longer support POP3 and said imapi is much better, so I want to switch my ZoHo to imapai. I googled and it said i need to change it in my account....i looked at my account
    • What functionality is new in the Z025 Spaces UI dashboard compared to the previous Zoho One dashboard?

      My company is interested in creating a revamped dashboard this coming year, and are trying to weigh different platform options. The new Spaces UI is said to be a more "feature-rich" dashboard experience than the previous. Could a developer please explain
    • Collections Management: #5 Convenience on Offer, using Self-Checkout

      "Is this the right page? Oh, now, it wants my address again. Why am I being redirected?" These were the exact thoughts running through Karan's mind as he tried to subscribe to an application he genuinely liked. He clicked "Buy Now", expecting a quick
    • Uploading a signed template from Sign to Creator

      Good day, Please help me on how to load a signed document back into Creator after the process has been completed in Sign. Below is the code that I am trying, pdfFile = response.toFile("SignedDocument_4901354000000372029.pdf"); info pdfFile; // Attach
    • PROBLEMA

      Salve, non riesco a inviare email, e mi esce una tabela errore temporaneo. come posso risolvere il problema ?
    • Tip #50- A Closer Look at the Unattended Access Dashboard- 'Insider Insights'

      Having complete visibility and quick access to everything you need certainly makes managing multiple remote devices a lot easier, and that is precisely what the Unattended Access Dashboard in Zoho Assist is designed to offer. Once you go to the Unattended
    • How to update custom multi-user field in Zoho Projects?

      I'm trying to update custom multi-user fields in Zoho Projects via a Deluge function in CRM. The code I have so far is below. It works for updating standard project fields and single-line custom fields, but it does not work to update multi-user fields.
    • Next Page