Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    • Recent Topics

    • Zoho Projects - Task Owner filter at Project level

      Hi Projects Team, The feature requests I would like to raise is the ability to create a custom view at the project level for projects with tasks owned by a user or users. For example "Ashley's Projects" custom view might contain a list of project in which
    • Cadences

      I have just started using Cadences for follow-up up email pipeline. Is it just me or do you find the functionality very basic? For example, it will tell me (if I go looking for it) if someone has replied to a follow-up and been unenrolled; but it won't
    • Custom Fonts in Zoho CRM Template Builder

      Hi, I am currently creating a new template for our quotes using the Zoho CRM template builder. However, I noticed that there is no option to add custom fonts to the template builder. It would greatly enhance the flexibility and branding capabilities if
    • Would be really awesome to have Created Time and Modified Time showing for custom functions list

      It would be SO HELPFUL to be able to sort custom functions by created time/ modified time. Also seeing a created by/ modified by with the little profile picture would be supremely helpful as well. Just really hard sometimes to find a function you were
    • Ticket Export Does Not Include Ticket Threads

      Dear Zoho Desk Support Team, I hope you’re doing well. I would like to report an issue regarding the ticket export functionality in Zoho Desk. Currently, when exporting tickets, the ticket threads or conversation history are not included — only the ticket
    • Payments made notification

      This is a really wonderful feature but we can only use it for about 50% of payments made & have to revert to sending statements which is a real chore. Credits applied to the bills paid in the notification aren't included & this causes great confusion in the accounts receivable departments. Please, please add this required feature asap ! .....
    • Ability to add VAT to Retainer Invoices

      Hello, I've had a telephone conversation a month ago with Dinesh on this topic and my request to allow for the addition of VAT on Retainer Invoices.  It's currently not possible to add VAT to Retainer Invoices and it was mutually agreed that there is absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be, especially as TAX LAW makes VAT mandatory on each invoice in Europe!   So basically, what i'm saying is that if you don't allow us to add VAT to Retainer Invoices, than the whole Retainer Invoices becomes
    • ZOHO DESK link with Power BI

      HI, I am using ZOHO Desk for last two years and now my client is asking to integrate ZOHO desk data to Power BI so that they can use Data for reporting. Kindly guide in details so that i can give access to ZOHO desk export data for more visibility.
    • URLs being masked despite disabling tracking

      Hey, We had disabled click tracking from an email update we are sharing with our users. Despite this, the URL the end user is receiving is masked, and looks like "https://qksyl-cmpzourl.maillist-manage.net/click/1d8e72714515cda6/1d8e72714515ca70" instead
    • Dashboard Autorefesh

      Good day, I am a dashboard that displays the number of tickets based on "Product Name". This dashboard is displayed on a big TV for the team to monitor. Can the dashboard auto-refresh every few minutes to display the new values? Currently, we have closed
    • Deferred/ Unearned revenue

      Dear Zoho Team, Just in case you have missed out my query posted few days ago: We issue invoices relating to 12-month web hosting service. When we issue the invoice, we should record the entire amount of the invoice as DEFERRED/UNEARNED REVENUE (ie. $10
    • Bigin Android app update: Zoho Books integration

      Hello everyone! We’re excited to introduce Zoho Books integration on the latest version(v1.8.5) Bigin Android app. Once the integration is completed in the web(bigin.zoho.com), the Zoho Books tab will be visible in detail View of Contacts, Companies,
    • Audit Log enhancements: Increased retention period, better user visibility, and more

      Hello everyone, The Audit Log brings in the following enhancements which improve the overall ability to manage data. Why did we make these updates? Extended Data Retention: Audit data can now be filtered and exported for a 60-day period, doubling the
    • Question Regarding Managing Sale Items in Zoho Books

      Good day, I was wondering about something. Right now, Zoho Books doesn’t seem to have a way to flag certain items as being on sale. For example, if I want a list of specific items to be on sale from October 1 to October 12, the user would have to export
    • System flaws and lack of response from Zoho

      I have had to go on here as no-one is replying to my emails regarding my problem (been 10 days and no email reply) and your chat facility online through your Zoho Books software opens and closes immediately, so not functioning properly. I actually called
    • Customer Grouping

      Hi, how can I group multiple customers into single group. So that I can have idea of accounts receivables of all the customers in single group. Like if there are multiple subsidiaries of same company we have having a business with, and want to view the
    • Two currencies

      More and more I am finding that internattional payments' fees are unpredictable. I would like, on my invoices that are in a foreign currency (eg. USD$ or EUR€) for there to be a GBP£ TOTAL display alongside the invoice's currency total. This would make
    • GST Slabs Redefined: Stay Compliant Using Zoho Books!

      Hello Everyone! The Government of India is rolling out new GST rates, a major reform aimed at simplifying the current tax structure starting 22 September 2025. GST will move from four slabs (5%, 12%, 18%, 28%) to two main slabs (5% and 18%), plus a special
    • Need Inactive accounts to be visible in Reports in Zoho Books

      I N=need Inactive accounts to be visible in Reports in Zoho Books to do recons of the accounts but when i see the same they are not visible in the Accountant - Account Transactions report
    • Edit item custom fields

      Getting this error : Transactions have been created with the custom field. Hence it cannot be deleted. Not trying to delete it, just trying to change which modules to show in or to not show at all in transactions !
    • Zoho Books - How to Invoke a Custom Function in Schedulers

      We have multiple schedulers that send emails to customers in batches. Currently, we are maintaining the same code across several schedulers. Is it possible to use a custom function inside a scheduler script? If yes, how can we invoke the custom function
    • Use Zoho Books to bill for work done in Zoho Desk??

      I'm trying to see if something is possible (and if yes, how). We use Zoho One to manage our business. We have a lot of clients that will put in a ticket (via portal) to have work done. Out techs will pick up the ticket, do the work, and then log the time
    • Zoho Finance Suite - Customer Custom Tabs - Dynamic Link

      Hi Finance Suite team, When creating a Custom Tab for a Client Portal, there is no option to add dynamic parameters. This would be very helpful for adding Zoho Analytics dashboards which can be dynamically filtered through the URL to only show information
    • Modular Permission Levels

      We need more modular Permissions per module in Books we have 2 use cases that are creating problems We need per module export permission we have a use case where users should be able to view the sales orders but not export it, but they can export other
    • Blueprint or Validation Rules for Invoices in Zoho Books

      Can I implement Blueprint or Validation Rules for Invoices in Zoho Books? Example, use case could be, Agent confirms from client that payment is done, but bank only syncs transactions tomorrow. in this case, Agent can update invoice status to done, and
    • Feature Enhancement Request – Text Formatting Options in Item Description (Zoho Books/Quotes Module)

      Dear Zoho Development Team, Greetings from Radiant360 Integrated Technical Services LLC. We would like to bring to your attention a functional limitation we've encountered within the Item Table / Quote Description section of Zoho Books (and Zoho CRM Quotes).
    • Bank Receipt Catagorization

      Hi, how can I match a bank deposit to multiple customer's invoices ? For e.g. A single person paid to us on behalf of different five customers. I need to keep the separated invoices for each customer
    • Payment on a past due balance

      Scenario: Customer is past due on their account for 4 months. We suspend their billing in Zoho books. Customer finally logs into the portal and enters a new credit card. We associate that cardwith their subscription, which will permit the card to be used
    • How to export all line-item descriptions for a specific item in Zoho Books?

      I am trying to audit a specific item (“Item X”) that has been invoiced multiple times with different line-level descriptions. Here’s the situation: I am using Zoho Books (Professional). Each invoice may contain the same item but with different descriptions
    • List of hidden features

      Hi Friends, I had another support chat today and low and behold the feature that I wanted just simply needed to be "enabled". I thought I'd share, and maybe see if others had some similar experiences. 1. This one is from 5 ish years ago. I asked if there
    • How to change a BAS that has been filed

      I have discovered that a group of expense transactions were accidentally placed in a asset account rather than an expense account. As a result I need to adjust the transaction and consequently most of my BAS to correct the error. Because the BAS have
    • How to Export PDF with a custom Template

      I need to export Sales Order with a Custom Template I have created How can I do it? I see an API to export the PDF but how can I choose which template to choose to generate the PDF
    • Associate email with a potential or project.

      I have a pivotal requirement to associate emails from various suppliers (contacts) with different potentials or projects, on an email by email basis as they come in. This question appears to have been raised before but I cannot find a definitive yes "it can be done". Could anyone please tell me, yes or no.  If the later I can stop wasting time and look at alternative crm systems. I would love not to have to do this. Thanks in advance.
    • Function with Search Records was working until a few weeks ago, around when "Connected Records" was released

      I have a custom function that has been running for nearly a year now, which suddenly stopped working around the time Zoho released the "Connected Records" update. The function is no longer finding the record using the searchRecords function. I've changed
    • Is CRM On Premise available

      Hi Zoho team, Can you please let me know that CRM Zoho is available for On Premise as well? Thanks, Devashish
    • How to sync from Zoho Projects into an existing Sprint in Zoho Sprints?

      Hi I have managed to integrate Zoho Projects with Zoho Sprints and I can see that the integration works as a project was created in Zoho Sprints. But, what I would like to do is to sync into an existing Zoho Sprints project. Is there a way to make that
    • Online Assessment or any aptitude test

      This video is really helpful! I have one question — if I share an assessment form link (through email or with the application form on my career page), how does Zoho Recruit evaluate it? Can a candidate use Google or external help while taking the test,
    • Incoming Threads Report

      From data to decisions: A deep dive into ticketing system reports Customers raise questions and issues through multiple channels, such as email, chat, or tickets. To monitor the number of queries received on a specific day from each channel, leads can
    • Conditional layouts - support for multi-select picklists

      Hi, The documentation for conditional layouts says the following: "Layout Rules cannot be used on the following field types: Auto Number Lookup Multi Select Lookup User Lookup Formula File Upload Multi Line" I have a custom module with a multi-pick list
    • How to apply customized Zoho Crm Home Page to all users?

      I have tried to study manuals and play with Zoho CRM but haven't found a way how to apply customized Zoho CRM Home Page as a (default) home page for other CRM users.. How that can be done, if possible? - kipi Moderation Update: Currently, each user has
    • Next Page