Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.




        • Recent Topics

        • Custom Buttons for Mass Actions

          Hello everyone, We’ve just made Custom Buttons in Zoho Recruit even more powerful! You can now create Bulk Action Buttons that let you perform actions on multiple records at once, directly from the List View. What’s new? Until now, custom buttons were
        • Zoho Vault Passwords

          Is there a way to consume Zoho Vault Manager passwords using the API? Thanks in advance.
        • Is the ChatGPT Assistant integration capable of recognizing WhatsApp voice messages?

          I was wondering: if a visitor sends me a voice message on WhatsApp, would the assistant be able to transcribe it and reply to them?
        • 【Zoho CRM】レポート機能のアップデート

          ユーザーの皆さま、こんにちは。コミュニティチームの藤澤です。 今回は「Zoho CRM アップデート情報」の中から、レポート機能のアップデートをご紹介します。 目次 1. レポートのエクスポート時のレコードIDの表示について 2. 通貨項目の表示について 3. レポートの削除の監査ログへの反映について 1. レポートのエクスポート時のレコードIDの表示について これまで、レポートをエクスポートするとファイルにレコードIDが必ず含まれていました。レコードIDが識別子として役立つ場合もありますが、実際には多くの企業で参照されることはありません。
        • Translation in zoho bookings

          We cant translate zoho booking emails. The general text we can change. But what about text like: ""Here a link to join the meeting online:"" and "Add to Zoho Calendar" and "Add to Google Calendar"? No professional business have mixed languages. Its looking
        • Is there any way to bill one client in different currencies on different invoices?

          I have some customers who have their currency set as USD and most of their billing is done in USD.   However, from time to time I have a need to bill them in my base currency GBP for some specific invoices, but there seems to be no way of doing this that I can see. The only workaround that I can see is to create two client records for the same client, one for USD billing and one for GBP billing, but this is not an ideal situation. Is it likely that the (hopefully!) soon to arrive multi-currency support
        • API name for all fields in Zoho Project (Standard or custom)

          Hi! I struggle to find easily all API name of all field in Zoho Project to build my API rest with other services. We can find them very fast in CRM but not in PRoject.   Could you share a function to get the list of all API Name of any field of an App
        • Disappearing Mouse cursor in Zoho Mail / Windows 11 (Chrome + Edge)

          I'm seeing an issue when writing mails with the light theme with the mouse cursor being white and the document area also being white - making it nearly impossible to see the mouse cursor. I see the problem on Windows 11 under Chrome and Edge. (Yet to
        • Zoho Assist not rendering NinjaTrader chart properly

          Hi everyone. Just installed and testing Zoho Assist. I want to display my laptop' screen (Windows 11) on a monitor connected to my Mac mini. The laptop is running a stock trading program called NinjaTrader. Basically, when running, this program displays
        • Link(s) between Notes

          Hello Everyone, It would be great if links could be created between notes. Let's say we have 5 Notes A, B, C , D, E. I would like to be able to link Note A to Note B but not in other way, so no link appears in Note B linking to Note A. An so on, linking
        • Feature Request: Assign Documents to Already Entered Bills, Expenses, Invoices, etc.

          Hi Zoho Team, We are regular users of the Documents module in Zoho Books and appreciate its ability to keep financial records well-organized. However, we’ve noticed a limitation: There is no way to attach a document from the "Documents > Files" section
        • I don't see any WITHDRAWL transaction at all

          Hi I manually imported my bank statement to Zoho books today and I am a complete newbie. I have been reading the knowledgebase but unable to fix this. I only see "Uncategorized 91 DEPOSIT transactions". I don't see any WITHDRAWL transaction at all. Also,
        • Shared inbox unable to see replies

          Hi we are a small company me and someone else, we have a shared inbox for our sale@ and contact@ however we have this issue where by if i reply to an email or the other person reply to the email, it does not show it to them and therefore we end up replying
        • 404 error at checkout

          Our customers are getting a 404 error at checkout. Anyone else with the same problem?
        • FONT Sizing in Notebook

          Hi Kishore - What is the status of adding font sizing to the application? I have several things that I have pasted directly into Notebook and the fonts are HUGE! I would like the ability to highlight them and reduce the font to a legible size. Nothing
        • Can managers Upload documents to their direct rapports?

          Admin employees have the ability to upload documents to employees' files; however, managers do not have add/manage button - is it possible for managers to upload their direct reports' documents, such as absence documents or 121 documents. Is there something
        • Leave balance display for next year

          Is there a way to not have a rollover or not limit the leave balance depending on the date. For example an employee has 10 days leave balance and wants to apply for January leave in December. They cant because the rollover doesnt show the leave balance
        • Please add an “Auto-Apply Unused Credits” toggle

          Hello — please add a simple org-level option to automatically apply unused credits (credit notes, excess payments, retainers) to new invoices and/or bills. An ON/OFF toggle with choices “invoices”, “bills”, or “both” would save lots of manual work for
        • Zoho Books not working/loading

          Hi! I haven't been able to access/load Zoho Books for the past hours. I get a time out (and it is not due to my internet connection). Could you please check this asap? Thank you!
        • Custom Fields with Data Types for Expense and Payments Received in Zoho Books

          Hi all, We are glad to present to you, the option to create Custom Fields for the Expense and Payments received modules in Zoho Books. This also comes with an icing on top of it - Yes, the custom fields can now be created with different data types. Types like Text, Number, Decimal, Amount, Auto Number and Check Box are supported as of now. Rush to the gear icon at the top right corner, select 'More Settings', choose 'Preferences' in the left pane. Click the Expense/Payment preferences where you can
        • Zoho Cliq - Incident alert (Server outage - IN DC) | August 28

          We've received server down alerts and are currently investigating the issue (IN DC) to find the root cause. Our team is actively working to restore normal operations at the earliest. Status: Under investigation Start time: 09:44:21 AM IST Affected location:
        • How can I see content of system generated mails from zBooks?

          System generated mails for offers or invices appear in the mail tab of the designated customer. How can I view the content? It also doesn't appear in zMail sent folder.
        • Narrative 10: Assignment Rules - Streamlining Ticket Management

          Behind the scenes of a successful ticketing system: BTS Series Narrative 10: Assignment Rules - Streamlining Ticket Management In the complex world of customer support, a flood of incoming tickets can hit the help desk in seconds. Businesses must do more
        • Custom form - Duplicate Value Present

          I am new to Zoho People. I create a new form on Zoho People quite simple. A date (by default the current date) and a radio button with 3 options (Yes, No, Not applicable) I defined the date as ‘No duplicate’ as only one entry by date is allowed. I added:
        • Zoho API connection issues

          Hi, Today at around 1930 GMT our application started experiencing intermittent timeouts from the Zoho API. These intermittent timeouts are not enabling our app to work properly. The API connection was working just fine before. HTTPSConnectionPool(host='www.zohoapis.com',
        • Query Regarding our Partnership between AIC-JKLU and Zoho

          Dear Zoho Team, I am writing to raise a concern on behalf of AIC-JKLU, one of Zoho’s incubator partners. Recently, our startups have been facing difficulties while trying to get themselves onboarded on Zoho through our dedicated partner link. Unfortunately,
        • Getting events in the future

          Hi I am trying to get events in the future by calling this API Endpoint https://www.zohoapis.eu/crm/v8/Events?fields=Event_Title,Created_By,Created_Time,Start_DateTime But that gives me all events in the database. How do I make a query that returns all
        • Created Date/Invalid Fields

          Since Saturday we have suddenly had issues with our webhooks and data retrieval from CRM. Specifically how Created Date is handled. It appears there was some sort of change within CRM that broke a lot of our code that has been in place for several years.
        • Revenue Management: #9 Revenue Recognition in Media & Publishing

          Media & Publishing industry has evolved in recent times. It offers subscriptions, bundles digital and print access, runs sponsored content, and sometimes even sells ad spaces. If you run a media or publishing business, you will always get into a situation
        • Zoho CRM Community Digest - July 2025 | Part 2

          Hello, Everyone! We’re closing out July with a can’t-miss highlight: Zoholics Europe 2025! Happening from September to October, it’s your chance to level up your CRM skills, covering everything from automation and CPQ to dashboards and advanced workflows.
        • How can I trigger a flow action only once while updating contact?

          Hi, we have a trigger to merge&mail file when the field YYY is filled out. For this acion I used "Create or update module entry". But unfortunately we get tens of email on a day with this merged file, because the contact is being regularly updated. The
        • Copy a Record Template from one Form to another

          I have a Creator application with several forms.  I developed a record template for one of the reports/forms but want to use most of it for another of the form/report combinations in the application. Is there a way to copy the template (code or otherwise) to another form?
        • Tip of the Week #70 – Create common team signatures for your shared inboxes

          Did you know that a small detail, such as an email signature, can make a big difference in how your brand is perceived? One simple yet smart way to enhance your team’s communication is by creating common team signatures for your shared inboxes. Instead
        • Enhanced data export features: XLSX format, custom character encoding, and selective record export

          Greetings all, Here are a few enhancements related to exporting CRM data, including the ability to export data in XLSX file format now. The Export feature under Data Administration now offers new options that expand its flexibility and enable users to
        • Tip #42 – How to manage data security with Privacy Settings – 'Insider Insights'

          Data privacy is a cornerstone of trust in remote support. Through Privacy Settings in Zoho Assist, you can set up how data is gathered, stored, and handled in your organization. These settings ensure compliance, data protection for sensitive details,
        • Ticketbai! en el Pais Vasco

          Hola a todos, En enero de 2.022 se va a implantar en el país vasco un nuevo sistema de facturación, denominado ticketbai!, ¿hay alguna previsión de realizar las adaptaciones en zoho books o zoho invoices? Ignoro la cantidad de clientes que tienen estas
        • Zoho CRM mobile app feature update: home page widgets, field tooltips and user image upload

          Hello everyone! Your business doesn't pause when you're on the move, and neither should your CRM. That's why in our latest update, we've introduced a few new features to make your mobile CRM experience smoother and more efficient. Let's take a quick look
        • Zoho CRM Plain Text Template: Line Breaks and Formatting Issue

          Hello, I'm following the instructions to create email templates in Zoho CRM, but I'm having a problem with the plain text version. https://help.zoho.com/portal/en/kb/zoho-sign/integrations/zoho-apps/zoho-crm/articles/zoho-crm-email-templates#Steps_to_create_a_custom_email_template
        • Optimizing Task Handling: Auto-Remove Recurrence for cancelled Tasks.

          Hello Everyone, A Custom function is a user-written set of code to achieve a specific requirement. Set the required conditions needed as when to trigger using the Workflow rules (be it Tasks / Project) and associate the custom function to it. Requirement:
        • Important updates to your connectors

          Hello everyone, Greeting from Zoho Creator! We're excited to announce that we'll be rolling out significant backend updates to Zoho Creator's built-in connectors to enhance security by following the latest frameworks. The existing version of some of the
        • Next Page