Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    • Recent Topics

    • Python - code studio

      Hi, I see the code studio is "coming soon". We have some files that will require some more complex transformation, is this feature far off? It appears to have been released in Zoho Analytics already
    • API question - adding a thread to an existing ticket

      Hi Is there an API function for the customer to add to an existing ticket thread? example, customer puts in new support ticket. support replies and ask for more details. customer replies with more details -what api function is used for this (will add record append to same ticket number?) Thanks
    • search and Smart Bar both missing in Mail

      One of the users on my account does not have the search bar at the top right or the Smart Bar at the bottom left of the desktop Mail app. Any ideas how to get those back?
    • Why is Zoho Meeting quality so poor?

      I've just moved from Office 365 to Zoho Workplace and have been generally really positive about the new platform -- nicely integrated, nice GUI, good and easy-to-understand control and customisation, and at a reasonable price. However, what is going on
    • Items Below Reorder Point Report?

      Is there a way to run a report of Items that are below the Reorder Point? I don't see this as a specific report, nor can I figure out how to customize any of the other stock reports to give me this information. Please tell me I'm missing something s
    • Qwen will be the new default open source Generative AI model for Zia

      Hello everyone, Zia Generative AI is transitioning from Llama (8B parameters) to Qwen (30B parameters) as the default model. This means that users who were using Llama as a GenAI service will now use Qwen. This upgrade was made with a vision to enhance
    • Calendar week view: Today + 6

      Is there anyway to have the calendar change dynamically based on the date? Due to the amount of events, we only display a week at a time, but towards the end of the week, we can no longer see ahead to next week (without changing it manually every time).
    • How to restrict user/portal user change canvas view

      Hi , I would like to restrict user / portal user change their canvas view because I hide some sensitive field for them. I dont want my user switch the canvas view that do not belong to them But seems Zoho do not provide this setting?
    • E-Invoicing in Belgium with Zoho Inventory

      Starting January 1, 2026, Belgium is introducing mandatory electronic invoices (e-invoicing) for all B2B transactions between VAT-registered businesses. Invoices and credits notes must be exchanged in a prescribed digital format. How E-Invoicing Works
    • Introducing parent-child ticketing in Zoho Desk [Early access]

      Hello Zoho Desk users! We have introduced the parent-child ticketing system to help customer service teams ensure efficient resolution of issues involving multiple, related tickets. You can now combine repetitive and interconnected tickets into parent-child
    • How to add to Subforms via Zapier with Zoho Writer?

      I have the following layout for a Zoho Writer Document. As you can see there is a repeating subform taking in "Items". I am trying to make a Zapier integration with it, and I can see there is 1 field saying: "Items", but it does not specify how I'm supposed
    • Contrôles administratifs granulaires : un atout pour la sécurité des e-mails

      La moindre erreur dans votre système de messagerie peut coûter très cher à votre entreprise, tant en argent qu’en conformité et en image de marque. Pour beaucoup d’organisations, ce risque est bien réel. Les e-mails véhiculent quotidiennement des informations
    • Marketer's Space: Why mobile optimization deserves a place in your email strategy

      Hello Marketers, Welcome back to Marketer's Space! Today, we'll talk about the importance of creating mobile-friendly email designs. While mobile phones were once used only to make phone calls, today they're used for almost everything, including texting,
    • Collections Management: #6 Realign Customers who gets back In-Term

      Arun stared at the subscription list on his dashboard. Another account had just been moved to Cancelled status after completing the whole dunning process. Nothing unusual, just that payment failures happen, retries fail, and cancellation is the expected
    • Zoho Mail IP Blacklist

      I need problems with send mails: Error: junk mail rejected - sender4-op-o10.zoho.com 136.143.188.10, is in RBL. Spamcop. Please remove FQDN for blacklist. Regards.
    • I can receive but not send emails

      Hello, I've been not able to send emails for almost a year now. I been using alternate email to do this. I want to know how to fix this so I can use my zoho account normally again.
    • The challenge of 24/7 connectivity: Being present and meeting customer expectations

      Before television entered our homes, radio was our window to the world. We had to tune carefully to catch voices from distant places. When television arrived, the world began to grow smaller. We can watch rocket launches, see the goal that wins our favorite
    • How to download all attachments from inbox, send, other folders in one go

      Hi All, Appreciate if anyone could help me with steps for below requirement. How to download all attachments from inbox, send, other folders in one go. Even mapping to new folder will help me. Thanks in advance.
    • Cannot connect mail accounts to Thunderbird

      Hi Support - I'm attempting to add my mail accounts to Thunderbird but I'm getting an unable to login to server error. I tried to use the password associated with my account I received the unable to login error. So I went into Zoho Accounts and generate
    • Alias Email Id already exists

      Hi, I just verified my domain sesque (dot) com and now I am trying to create the admin account using admin (at) sesque (dot) com, but I am getting an error saying "Alias Email Id already exists". I used to have another Zoho account with this email address,
    • Unable to connect to smtp server, connection timed out

      Hi Team, I am facing below issue, while sending out emails from thunderbird client. It used to work, facing this issue from morning. Error: Sending of the message failed. The message could not be sent because the connection to Outgoing server (SMTP) smtp.zoho.com
    • javax.mail.authenticationfailedexception 535 authentication failed

      Hi, I am facing 535 authentication failed error when trying to send email from zoho desktop as well as in webmail. Can you suggest to fix this issue,. Regards, Rekha
    • Client Portal ZOHO ONE

      Dear Zoho one is fantastic option for companies but it seems to me that it is still an aggregation of aps let me explain I have zoho books with client portal so client access their invoice then I have zoho project with client portal so they can access their project but not their invoice without another URL another LOGIN Are you planning in creating a beautiful UI portal for client so we can control access to client in one location to multiple aps at least unify project and invoice aps that would
    • Zoho Creator customer portal users

      Hi, I'm in a Zoho One subscription with our company. I'm running a project now that involves creating a Zoho Creater application and using the Zoho Creator Customer Portal.  At most we need 25 customer portal users. In our Zoho One plan we only get 3
    • DKIM Verification Failed (Namecheap)

      Hi! I have already set up the TXT records in Namecheap but I keep getting the "Verification Failed" pop up. Was wondering if I'm the only one who has this problem and can anyone help me with this? Thanks!
    • Emails stuck in Queue

      Hi there, Since yesterday I have a few out going emails stuck in a queue. It say it will auto retry sending however nothing is happening. It seems to be affecting roughly 50% of my outgoing emails. Please help Thanks
    • Soft Bounce from transational emails from BREVO (Sendinblue)

      I manage the website of a client who uses your EMAIL service for the domain floranativadobrasil.com. And I use the BREVO email service, previously called SendinBlue, to send transactional emails about events specific to the website. All emails sent to
    • Ability to Edit YouTube Video Title, Description & Thumbnail After Publishing

      Hi Zoho Social Team, How are you? We would like to request an enhancement to Zoho Social that enables users to edit YouTube video details after the video has already been published. Your team confirmed that while Zoho Social currently allows editing the
    • Introducing Multi-Asset Support in Work Orders, Estimates, and Service Appointments

      We’re excited to announce a highly requested enhancement in Zoho FSM — you can now associate multiple assets with Work Orders, Estimates, and Service Appointments. This update brings more clarity, flexibility, and control to your field service operations,
    • Getting an error Address not found Your message wasn't delivered

      Hey, I'm trying to configure zoho mail for my website https://businessentity.org/ The email is meredith.karter@businessentity.org I'm able to successfully send the mails but when someone sends an email to above mail, this error shoots up: Address not
    • Support Uploading YouTube Videos Longer Than 60 Minutes

      Hi Zoho Social Team, How are you? We would like to request support for uploading YouTube videos longer than 60 minutes directly through Zoho Social. Your support team informed us that Zoho Social currently cannot upload videos over 60 minutes due to “API
    • Need Faster Help? Try Live Chat Support

      Hello there, We understand that sometimes, whether you’re facing an issue, exploring a feature, or need quick clarification, sending an email and waiting for a response just doesn’t cut it. You need answers, and you need them now. That’s exactly why we
    • Can't deactivate Spell Check

      Hi Community, right now I'm using the Zoho Mail Desktop-Software. So far, so good.. many possibilities. Overall very nice. What is extremely annoying right now, is that we are not able to deactivate the Spell Check feature. And we are barely able to focus
    • Zoho Toolkit Email Signature Generator

      I'm having real issues with the email signature generator with no matter where I host the photo, Zoho doesn't seem to show the photo on the link provided?
    • Company Policy Upload - Request All EE to review and sign

      How can I upload policies into Zoho People and have the employees review them and sign off saying they agree, etc.? Also, if I make a revision to a policy, I would like that changed or updated policy to be distributed or have the employees notified that
    • Zoho Sign Global Settings vs. Template and Document

      Hello, We are running into an issue on a current use case. We already use Zoho Sign. Now that KBA is available, we want to begin using it in our tax delivery process, by allowing clients to sign electronically, but also download a copy of their return
    • Zoho Mail Desktop Crashes on Linux - Ubuntu 24 LTS

      Hi, I have been trying to run the desktop app on Ubuntu for the past few day with no luck. I have tried both the .deb package and the appImage. When I attempt to open the app. It just crashes immediately. The crash error dialog appeared once and I cant
    • Can't login to Zoho mail

      I'm logged into Zoho but when I try to go in zoho mail I get: Invalid request! The input passed is invalid or the URL is invoked without valid parameters. Please check your input and try again. I just set up my mx records and stuff with namecheap a few
    • Zoho IP blocked by SpamCop

      Hi, Many of my emails are blocked and I receive this:  INVALID_ADDRESS, ERROR_CODE :550, ERROR_CODE :spamcop.mimecast.org Blocked - see https://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?136.143.188.51. - https://community.mimecast.com/docs/DOC-1369#550 [DGwIYPPSOfWI
    • Differences between Zoho Books and Zoho Billing

      Without a long drawn out process to compare these. If you were looking at these Books and Billing, what made you opt for one and not the other. Thanks
    • Next Page