Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.




        • Recent Topics

        • Increase the "Maximum Saved Entries per User" Options Limit

          Hi, You can create lots of saved entries, yet the Limit when you apply one is 25, we may often expect 32 to be in draft, and therefore want to enforce that, can we increase the limit of this field from 25 to 100 (As you can just turn it off and have more
        • Dynamic Field Folders in OneDrive

          Hi, With the 2 options today we have either a Dynamic Parent Folder and lots of attachments all in that one folder with only the ability to set the file name (Which is also not incremented so if I upload 5 photos to one field they are all named the same
        • Product Updates in Zoho Workplace applications | December 2025

          Hello Workplace Community, Let’s take a look at the new features and enhancements that went live across all Workplace applications this December. Zoho Mail Block emails without notifying the sender Block emails without sending a rejection notification
        • Zoho CRM for Gmail Extension Not Working in Brave Browser?

          Is anyone able to get the Zoho CRM Chrome Extension working in the Brave browser? They're both built on the Chromium platform and every other Chrome Extension works with the exception of Zoho CRM for Gmail so any ideas here?
        • Set Frozen Cells in the Report Settings

          Hi, It would be nice to be able to set the frozen cells in the report Settings, and have an option if this is fixed or can be changed after loading (On the next load it still goes back to the Settings). Thanks Dan
        • Microsoft Teams now available as an online meeting provider

          Hello everyone, We're pleased to announce that Zoho CRM now supports Microsoft Teams as an online meeting provider—alongside the other providers already available. Admins can enable Microsoft Teams directly from the Preferences tab under the Meetings
        • Tip of the week #26: Import/ Export calendars in Zoho Calendar.

          Any calendar on the web or calendars that you create in any other calendar application can be imported in to Zoho Calendar. This will help you to add the events from the calendars that you import to your Zoho Calendar. You also have the option to export
        • Add Zoho Forms to Zoho CRM Plus bundle

          Great Zoho apps like CRM and Desk have very limited form builders when it comes to form and field rules, design, integration and deployment options. Many of my clients who use Zoho CRM Plus often hit limitations with the built in forms in CRM or Desk and are then disappointed to hear that they have to additionally pay for Zoho Forms to get all these great forms functionalities. Please consider adding Zoho Forms in the Zoho CRM Plus bundle. Best regards, Mladen Svraka Zoho Certified Consultant and
        • Blocklist candidates in Zoho Recruit

          We’re introducing Block Candidate, which helps recruiters to permanently restrict a candidate from applying to current/future job openings. Once the candidate is blocked, they will no longer be able to participate in the recruitment process. This will
        • Zoho CRM for Everyone's NextGen UI Gets an Upgrade

          Hello Everyone We've made improvements to Zoho CRM for Everyone's Nextgen UI. These changes are the result of valuable feedback from you where we’ve focused on improving usability, providing wider screen space, and making navigation smoother so everything
        • Social icons, open in new tab?

          Hello, I have two social icons on my footer, Facebook and Psychology Today. Clicking on the Facebook icon opens a new tab, the Psychology Today icon does not. I would like them both to open a new tab. Am I missing a setting somewhere?
        • Real-Time Screen Annotation During Zoho Cliq Screen Sharing

          Hi Zoho Support Team, Hope you're doing well. We’d like to request the addition of real-time screen annotation tools during screen sharing sessions in Zoho Cliq video calls. 🔍 What We're Looking For: The ability for the presenter—and optionally, other
        • Autofill address using smart fields mapped over the pdf document

          Hi, I'm using mail merge to map smart fields onto PDF documents I plan to distribute for signing. I already have a Zoho Sign subscription. When mapping smart fields from the Employee form, I only see the permanent and current addresses which include the
        • Live Chat for user

          Hi everyone, I’m new to Zoho Creator and wanted to ask if it’s possible to add a live chat option for all logged-in portal users so they can chat internally. I’m trying to create a customer portal similar to a service desk, but for vehicle breakdowns,
        • How do I cap employee leave accrual

          HI there, How do I cap an employee's leave accrual? The policy is that you accrue 15 days leave annually (1.25 days a month) and once you reach 15 days, you wont accrue more until you take leave. Thank you!
        • Open sub form from a button as a popup form

          Is there a way within a form to use similar code as below to show a button in the form when clicked opens the subform for data to be added to the record being viewed in the form OpenUrl("#Form:<Customer_Delivery_Address>?<Delivery_Address>=" + input.ID,"popup
        • Dont have backup option in setting

          Hi guys. I started using zoho book a week ago. I bought premium package yet I don't have backup option in setting. I hope anyone can help me find a solution. Thanks in advance
        • Making Tags Mandatory

          When creating an expense, is it possible to make the Tags field mandatory?  I see the option in settings to make other fields mandatory, like Merchant, Description, Customer, etc, but nothing about Tags. Thanks! Kevin
        • Is there a plan to integrate zoho voice with zoho books?

          Hello, Is there a plan to integrate zoho voice with zoho books? Right now we are using the Twilio SMS integration into zoho books, but have recently decided to switch to zoho voice for calls and sms. Is there a plan to integrate zoho voice natively into
        • Pass variables to Zoho Desk via URL to create a fast new ticket landing page

          We are integrating our phone system into Zoho Desk. Currently when a helpdesk agent answers the phone, a soft client opens a new tab with zoho desk at the new case page. https://desk.zoho.com/support/companyname/ShowHomePage.do#Cases/new We would like
        • Zoho Books Extension: What Happens If Custom Fields Already Exist?

          When developing Zoho Books extensions, what happens if the target Zoho Books organization already has a custom field with the same API name as one defined in the extension? I’m asking because we originally created an on-Books version of this functionality,
        • Modular Permission Levels

          We need more modular Permissions per module in Books we have 2 use cases that are creating problems We need per module export permission we have a use case where users should be able to view the sales orders but not export it, but they can export other
        • ¡Vuelven los Workshops Certificados de Zoho a España!

          ¡Hola usuarios de Español Zoho Community! Hace ya unos días que hemos dado la bienvenida al 2026, y promete ser un año de lo más emocionante. Y es que nos gustaría haceros nuestro particular regalo de Reyes, aunque lleguemos un poco tarde. 🎁 ¡Nos gustaría
        • Free Webinar on 21 January: Looking back at Zoho Mail in 2025

          Hello Zoho Community! Curious about how Zoho Mail evolved in 2025? Wondering how these updates can make your everyday email work simpler? We’ve got a session you won’t want to miss. In our Zoho Mail 2025 recap webinar, we’ll walk you through the key features
        • Cliq Networks users can see all other network users contact information

          Is there a way to hide user contact information from each user in networks? I would only like the users to see the admin's contact information, not other users. Network users information shared by default
        • Zoho Sheet - Printing - Page Breaks and Printing Customization

          I think the title is descriptive enough in that I cannot find help documentation on a simple task of adding in page brakes for separating pages on print. Thanks
        • Missing the "Find & Merge Duplicates" choice

          Hi, I am missing the "Find & Merge Duplicates" choice. I looked under the "More Actions" menu in Contacts, Accounts, Vendors, and Leads and it is not there. I have full permissions. Please assist me on finding this feature. Thanks!
        • OAuth integration issues

          I'm experiencing persistent OAuth errors when trying to connect Make with Zoho API. I've tried multiple approaches but keep encountering the following issues: First error: 'Invalid Redirect Uri - Redirect URI passed does not match with the one configured'
        • Marketing Tip #16: Ideal sizes and formats for adding images to your online store

          Images can make (or break) your storefront experience. When your banners and product photos follow the right sizes and aspect ratios, your store looks cleaner, loads faster, and feels more trustworthy—especially on mobile. Here are recommended image sizes
        • Improve WhatsApp Module in Zoho CRM

          The current WhatsApp module UI in Zoho CRM feels cluttered and complex, especially when handling high volumes of conversations. It would be great to enhance the WhatsApp module UI/UX by adopting a clean and simplified interface similar to Bigin CRM’s
        • Blueprint transitions on locked records

          We use the ability to automatically lock records (quotes, sales orders, etc.) based on criteria, such as stage. For instance, if a quote has been sent to a client, the quote is then locked for further edits. Our ideal quote stage process is: Draft>Sent>Won.
        • Enhance productivity with the revamped Zoho Sheet View

          Hello folks, For some time now, you've been able to use the Zoho Sheet View to quickly edit multiple records or to insert a batch of new records. Its tabular interface allows users to engage in these tasks productively. Despite this, the existing Sheet
        • No OR Filter for Views with a Related Modules Criteria

          We would like to create a Deal View where the User can see all their deals. For that, we would need an OR to connect the criteria. One of the Fields is a "multiselect User", these (Related Modules Criteria) can only be Filter with an AND. Even between
        • Good news! Calendar in Zoho CRM gets a face lift

          Dear Customers, We are delighted to unveil the revamped calendar UI in Zoho CRM. With a complete visual overhaul aligned with CRM for Everyone, the calendar now offers a more intuitive and flexible scheduling experience. What’s new? Distinguish activities
        • Chat to Lead

          Can I convert a Chat to a Lead?
        • Limit maximum entries for subform - depending on fields entry

          Hi Zoho! I have a form with a subform in it. I'd like to have limitation for the row number depending on an entry in a drop-down field in the main form (If the field in the main form is marked "Answer1" - Limit the entries to 1 row, if the field is "Answer2" to have 2 rows limitation, "Answer3" = no limitation at all) Can this be done? Thanks Ravid
        • Save HTML Snippet Page as PDF with Dynamic Data in Zoho Creator (Working Solution)

          Hi Zoho Creator Community 👋, I faced a common challenge while working with HTML Snippet Pages — I needed to generate a PDF with dynamic data and save it back into the record automatically. Here’s the working solution that might help others. Use Case
        • Make Camera Overlay & Recording Controls Visible in All Screen-Sharing Options

          Hi Zoho WorkDrive Team, Hope you are doing well. We would like to request an improvement to the screen-recording experience in Zoho WorkDrive. Current Limitation: At the moment the recording controls are visible only inside the Zoho WorkDrive tab. When
        • Cannot connect to imap.zoho.eu on iOS26

          Hey, I recently migrated to another iPhone and since then use iOS26. Every since then, I was not able to connect to "imap.zoho.eu" from Apple Mail. I tried deleting the account and adding it again, did not work. I tried creating an app password, didn't
        • Rebranding Options for Zoho One

          We need the addition of rebranding and white-labeling settings directly within the Zoho One Admin Panel. This feature should allow organizations to customize the unified portal with their own logo, brand colors, and custom domain mapping (e.g., portal.company.com).
        • Next Page