Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.




        • Recent Topics

        • The Social Wall: May 2025

          Hey everyone, We're excited to share some powerful updates for the month of May! Let's take a look! Reply to your Instagram and Facebook comments privately through direct messages Are you tired of cluttered comment threads or exposing customer queries
        • Sub-Form Fields as Filters for Reports

          Hi, I would like to use the Sub-Form Fields as Filters in Reports just like we do for Main Page Fields. Thanks Dan
        • Zoho CRM Formula - Current Time minus Date/Time field

          Hello, I am trying to prevent duplicate emails going to clients when more than 1 deal is being updated. To do this, I would like to create a formula to identify if a date/time field is >= 2 hours ago. Can someone please help me write this formula? Example:
        • Billing Management: #7 Usage Billing in Telecom & Internet Service Provider

          Telecom and Internet Service Providers operate in markets where usage varies drastically from one customer to another. While flexible, usage-based models align revenue directly with consumption, they also introduce operational challenges like real-time
        • Zoho Sprints - Q3 updates for 2025

          The updates for the third quarter of 2025 are out. A few significant features and enhancements have been rolled out to improve user experience and product capabilities. The following are the updates: Manage tags and cluster tags Record and maintain project
        • Kaizen #208 - Answering your Questions | Functions, AI and Extensions

          Hello Developers! Welcome back to a fresh week of Kaizen! We are grateful for your active participation in sharing feedback and queries for our 200th milestone. This week, we will answer the queries related to Functions and Extensions in Zoho CRM. 1.
        • Zoho CRM still doesn't let you manage timezones (yearly reminder)

          This is something I have asked repeatedly. I'll ask once again. Suppose that you work in France. Next month you have a trip to Guatemala. You call a contact there, close a meeting, record that meeting in CRM. On the phone, your contact said: "meet me
        • Creating Restaurant Inventory Management on Zoho

          Hi,  We run a small cloud kitchen and are interested to use Zoho for Inventory and Composite Item tracking for our food served and supplied procured to make food items.  Our model is basically like subway where the customer can choose breads, veggies,
        • To Zoho customers and partners: how do you use Linked Workspaces?

          Hello, I'm exploring how we can set up and use Linked Workspaces and would like to hear from customers and partners about your use cases and experience with them. I have a Zoho ticket open, because my workspace creation fails. In the meantime, how is
        • Zoho Forms to Zoho CRM : First/Last Name to just Name ?

          When integrating a Zoho Form into the Accounts menu of the CRM I'm having trouble with how names are formatted ; In Forms the data is available as First Name or Last Name In the CRM there is only one field called Name How can I ensure that "John" "Smith"
        • This festive season, offer discounts with coupon code support in Stripe Checkout

          Hello form builders! It’s the festive season, the perfect time to spread joy and great deals! Now, with Zoho Forms’ latest enhancement for Stripe Checkout, you can do exactly that with coupon codes! Your payment forms integrated with Stripe Checkout can
        • Cómo creo una factura negativa o de abono?

          NEcesito anular una factura y crear una nueva igual pero en negativo. El sistema no me lo permite
        • Power of Automation::Streamline log hours to work hours upon task completion.

          Hello Everyone, A Custom Function is a user-written set of code to achieve a specific requirement. Set the required conditions needed as to when to trigger using the Workflow rules (be it Tasks / Project) and associate the custom function to it. Requirement:-
        • CRM : Function to add user name to text field

          I have a lookup field in a module that is linked to the CRM users so we can assign a Project Lead to the customer. Sadly Zoho Marketing Automation doesn't sync Lookup fields so I need to extract information from the lookup to text fields: Lookup field
        • Zoho CRM - Restrict Login based on work hours

          Hi there, I'm wondering if we can restrict users to login during works - For example the users would be able to login from 8am to 5pm. I have seen the IP address restriction - the only downfall is what if the customer has dynamic IP. thanks Jiri
        • Tips and Tricks #46: Customize themes and templates using Show's Master View

          Hi All!  Let's say you want to revamp your presentation and make changes to its visual design. You can do this easily using the Master Slide and its associated layouts. The Master Slide stores information about all the layouts used in the presentation.
        • Sheet View in CRM portal

          Hi, When will it be possible for my CRM portal users to edit/add records with Sheet View? George
        • What's New in Zoho Invoice | July - September 2025

          Hello everyone! We’re back with the latest updates and enhancements we’ve rolled out in Zoho Invoice from July to September 2025. Here’s what’s new this quarter: Introducing the Singapore Edition in Zoho Invoice Share Invoices through WhatsApp GST 2.0
        • Alert: Audio Call Support to be discontinued for Old Live Chat Widget from December 31, 2025

          Action Required: Upgrade to the New SalesIQ Live Chat Widget We're reaching out with an important update regarding the SalesIQ Live Chat Widget that requires your immediate attention. Effective December 31, 2025, audio call functionality will no longer
        • multiple contacts for one account

          We currently use Zoho CRM where each Account represents a club or organization, and each Contact represents a manager or owner. However, some of our managers own or manage multiple clubs, and Zoho only allows a contact to be linked to one account at a
        • Rich text Merge field - Not using font specified in HTML

          I have a rich text merge field in a writer template which is creating a table. I have chosen to use this method instead of a repeat region because I need to specify specific cell background colours which change every time the document is created. The
        • ヒートマップ詳細設定について

          はじめまして マーケティング担当の浅田です。 PageSenceのヒートマップ設定について質問です。 単一ページ毎の設定は上手くできるのですが 詳細設定にて、トップページのURLを含ませ全体のヒートマップを計測できないか試したところ お知らせ:データを受信していません。と表示されてしまいます。 トップページURLで始まるページの条件も試しております。 全頁を反映させたいと思い、詳細設定を上手く設定できたらと考えております。 どなたか詳しい方がいらっしゃいましたら、教えて頂けませんでしょうか 宜
        • Automatic category assignment

          Hi, I’d like to ask if there is a way to automatically assign an expense category based on the recognized Merchant. What would be the simplest way to set up automatic category assignment? Alternatively, is there an option to first choose the category
        • Experience with Zoho Vertical Studio

          I'm considering Zoho Vertical and would love to hear from some devs who've been using it. The Zoho ecosystem is pretty solid, so I assume the experience has been pretty good, but sometimes Zoho has its quirks. Overall, has your experience been positive?
        • LinkedIn Chrome Extension

          Hello - I believe it is a known issue that the LinkedIn extension Resume Extractor has stopped working and they are working on potential fixes. Wondering how others users are finding this issue and if there are any better workarounds for this issue? It
        • Advance PDF creation from CRM data

          I'm trying to create a PDF export of data in the CRM. My problem is I want a pretty complicated format for the data. I'm trying to export multiple modules worth of data, with nested one-to-many relationships between the modules. Along with that, I want
        • More Formula Functions

          Hi, I would like for example to be able to have a Date Field and Formula Fields, and then in the Formula Fields I would like to grab just the Month of the above Date Field or the Week Number of the above Date Field. So more "Functions" than the current
        • File upload size limits

          I am designing a contact form in Zoho Creator with File upload facility. I am not sure where and how to set the following properties for the same: Allowed File Types Maximum Size of the Attachment Number of Attachments
        • Composite Services and Account Tracking

          I am looking to garner support/request the ability to make composite services. A quick search in the forums brings up multiple requests for this feature. I fail to see why an item is mandatory while services are optional. I also would like to see the
        • All operation codes getting Not applied in WO-TT22J1025WOR0471, SR-TT22J1025PRE0423,FOR VIN-W1K6G2AB2SL005130.

          Dear Support Team, Please refer attached screenshot. All operation codes getting not applied in work order. Request you to please check and update ASAP.
        • Exclude Segment from Campaign Recipients

          I've created two Segments in order to separate Non-Marketing Contacts from Marketing Contacts. I'd like to send an Eblast to all Marketing contacts in my lists, but when I go to select Recipients, I have two options: 1. To Choose Lists to Send to; 2.
        • Reschedule Multiple/Mass Calls at Once

          When we go into a Call record, we have the option to "Reschedule Call." How can we select multiple Calls at once from the Activities tab and Reschedule them? The big use case for us: We have many leads that our reps are supposed to call on a daily basis.
        • Option to Empty Entire Mailbox or Folder in Zoho Mail

          Hello Zoho Mail Team, How are you? We would like to request an enhancement to Zoho Mail that would allow administrators and users to quickly clear out entire folders or mailboxes, including shared mailboxes. Current Limitation: At present, Zoho Mail only
        • I want to Make the due date of the project appears automatically

          hello everyone I want to know if the zoho projects app can add automatically the END DATE of the project I added the duration, start after dates of each tasks in the project template & the starting date of the project itself and the end date of it doesn't
        • Drag 'n' Drop Fields to a Sub-Form and "Move Field To" Option

          Hi, I would like to be able to move fields from the Main Page to a Sub-Form or from a Sub-Form to either the Main Page or another Sub-Form. Today if you change the design you have to delete and recreate every field, not just move them. Would be nice to
        • Deluge Tips & Tricks: Mastering dates and times

          Hello everyone! We're bringing back our Deluge Tips & Tricks series, where we show you how to make the most of Deluge for achieving a wide range of use cases. Working with dates and times is a fundamental part of almost any business application. Whether
        • Adding a Button in a Form in Zoho Creator App

          Hi I want to know how can I add a Button in Zoho Creator form. I have options that I select from a multiselect options and I want the button to add those selected options in a Subform. I do not want to add on a Page Builder I want it inside a specific
        • Internal Exception for Creator function

          I have been running a script successfully for several days using the scheduler in my application. Now today it suddenly creates and Internal Exception error. Nothing has changed about the script. The data is still retrievable from the web service it is using. Why would this suddenly be happening for no apparent reason? Also noticed that my usage logs are not up to date. Is something changing behind the scenes?
        • How to Set Up a Custom Domain and Customize Homepage

          Hello, I am experimenting with Zoho Creator to build applications for my own use case and have encountered a couple of issues: 1. Custom Domain Access: Is it possible to access my Zoho Creator application through a domain that I own? If so, how does the
        • Announcing new features in Trident for Mac (1.26.0)

          Hello everyone! Trident for macOS (v1.26.0) is here with new updates to securely manage your passwords, locally save your emails, and protect against emails with suspicious URLs. Let's take a quick look at them. Manage passwords with Zoho Vault eWidget.
        • Next Page