Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    Access your files securely from anywhere

        All-in-one knowledge management and training platform for your employees and customers.







                              Zoho Developer Community




                                                    • Desk Community Learning Series


                                                    • Digest


                                                    • Functions


                                                    • Meetups


                                                    • Kbase


                                                    • Resources


                                                    • Glossary


                                                    • Desk Marketplace


                                                    • MVP Corner


                                                    • Word of the Day


                                                    • Ask the Experts





                                                              Manage your brands on social media



                                                                    Zoho TeamInbox Resources



                                                                        Zoho CRM Plus Resources

                                                                          Zoho Books Resources


                                                                            Zoho Subscriptions Resources

                                                                              Zoho Projects Resources


                                                                                Zoho Sprints Resources


                                                                                  Qntrl Resources


                                                                                    Zoho Creator Resources



                                                                                        Zoho CRM Resources

                                                                                        • CRM Community Learning Series

                                                                                          CRM Community Learning Series


                                                                                        • Kaizen

                                                                                          Kaizen

                                                                                        • Functions

                                                                                          Functions

                                                                                        • Meetups

                                                                                          Meetups

                                                                                        • Kbase

                                                                                          Kbase

                                                                                        • Resources

                                                                                          Resources

                                                                                        • Digest

                                                                                          Digest

                                                                                        • CRM Marketplace

                                                                                          CRM Marketplace

                                                                                        • MVP Corner

                                                                                          MVP Corner









                                                                                            Design. Discuss. Deliver.

                                                                                            Create visually engaging stories with Zoho Show.

                                                                                            Get Started Now


                                                                                              Zoho Show Resources

                                                                                                Zoho Writer

                                                                                                Get Started. Write Away!

                                                                                                Writer is a powerful online word processor, designed for collaborative work.

                                                                                                  Zoho CRM コンテンツ



                                                                                                    Nederlandse Hulpbronnen


                                                                                                        ご検討中の方




                                                                                                                • Recent Topics

                                                                                                                • ZOHOBOOK Sales_QUOTE: To Add Discount At Each Line Item Table

                                                                                                                  Hi, Our quote need to display with discount at each line item level as well. Try to edit template, >CUSTOMISE>EDIT TEMPLATE> Table, I can see template view with discount column, but when hit SAVE the template, view in PDF the discount column not shown.
                                                                                                                • How to account for vat with postponed VAT accounting

                                                                                                                  Hi everyone, looking for some help with postponed VAT accounting, I use DHL express for my imports and they used to pay the VAT for me and then invoice me. I could then log this as a bill and the VAT element from import was recorded as input VAT, all
                                                                                                                • Weekly Automation Trigger for Equipment Calibration Reminder

                                                                                                                  Dear Team, I’m currently working on an automation in the Equipment module. The goal is to track calibration schedules for tools — all of which require regular calibration. I’ve created an automation that sends email reminders for tools that are due for
                                                                                                                • ADDDATE formula using 2 calculations

                                                                                                                  Hello, I want to create an ADDDATE formula using 2 calculations, add 1 month and deduct 1 day. the formula that I need should look like this: ADDDATE(due_date, 1, "Months")+ ADDDATE(due_date, -1, "Days") Each row itself works fine, but when I'm trying
                                                                                                                • Upgrading from Zoho Invoice to Books was a major downgrade in functionality for me

                                                                                                                  I have been a user for many years of a free plan on Zoho Invoice for my personal consulting business. I recent upgraded my organization to Books since some of the additional functionality looked useful to me, and played around with the free trial for
                                                                                                                • 🎉 Dynamic Org Chart for Zoho CRM Extension Published [2025]

                                                                                                                  Hey Zoho CRM Community! We're thrilled to unveil our latest Zoho extension:🥁 Dynamic Org Chart for Zoho CRM 🎊 This extension is now available to transform the way your teams visualize, manage, and interact with org chart directly inside any Zoho CRM's
                                                                                                                • Detailed General Ledger has problem of exporting out to excel and missing ledger details for some accounts

                                                                                                                  I have been encountering some problems generating Detailed General Ledger report with Zoho books. Firstly, I cannot export out the report of Detailed General Ledger to Excel. It will show this error message "invalid value passed for sort column", and
                                                                                                                • Upload a file to a File Upload Field through API

                                                                                                                  Hello, Is there any way to upload a file to a custom file upload field in a module when doing an Update using the Record API? I've found and I am able to upload files to attachments but I don't know how to upload them to a field. I've checked the documentation at  https://www.zoho.com/crm/help/api/v2/#update-specify-records but the File Upload field type does not appear in the examples. Thanks
                                                                                                                • Kaizen #131 - Bulk Write for parent-child records using Scala SDK

                                                                                                                  Hello and welcome back to this week's Kaizen! Last week, we discussed how to configure and initialize the Zoho CRM Scala SDK. This week, we will be exploring the Bulk Write API and its capabilities. Specifically, we will focus on executing bulk write
                                                                                                                • Automatic pricing feature for sales orders

                                                                                                                  I am currently setting up my Zoho Inventory system and would like to implement an automatic pricing feature for sales orders. We have created a custom field called "brandline" for our items. All products with the same brandline value should have the same
                                                                                                                • Ability to access VAT returns and submit them has disappeared.

                                                                                                                  I have been using Zoho books successfully to submit quarterly VAT returns. Without reason I have lost that facility. I have followed all available instructions eg going into settings, taxes, VAT etc. without success. My registration number is there and
                                                                                                                • How to automatically schedule a meeting After Blueprint Transition

                                                                                                                  As part of our sales process, we require a technician to go to the customer's site and perform an installation prior to advancing to the next stage of the blueprint.  So this will require (a) scheduling a meeting for the technician to visit the customer's site and (b) a reminder phone call the day before the scheduled meeting. As I'm designing the Deal Blueprint, I see that I can automatically add a Task to the deal, but I can't add a Meeting or a Call. What am I missing?  There seem to be 3 types
                                                                                                                • Zoho Recruit > Workflow

                                                                                                                  I have created a workflow for my application module Whenever a record is created The condition , application status is 1st call invitation I have set this OI do not receive the email that was suppose to be send out
                                                                                                                • Multiple locations but one parent company

                                                                                                                  I am trying to configure my accounts that have multiple locations under one parent company to show separate locations in the portal.   
                                                                                                                • Stock Count History in Product Details – Zoho Inventory

                                                                                                                  Hello Zoho Team, When I perform a Stock Count for a product in Zoho Inventory, I would like to view the history of those stock counts later — especially from the product details page. Currently, I can perform the count and update the quantity, but I’m
                                                                                                                • Create Project while winning potentials - Projects v3 api updated code

                                                                                                                  Hi all, I've been using the built in function to create a project while a deal is closed won and noticed it had some missing fields when trying to reference the zoho projects v3 api documentation. Specifically the project group had some issues when adding
                                                                                                                • Merge feature parity with writer

                                                                                                                  Hello Zoho team, I have run into a workflow limitation with Zoho Contracts and the lack of merge feature parity with what Writer can do. We have created a fairly complex merge process to create a statement of work based on several fields in our CRM which
                                                                                                                • Export option in Contacts is missing

                                                                                                                  Hello - I've been clicking around Zoho all morning trying to find the export option. It formerly was in the right hand corner, above the search box, but now I don't see it. I've looked everywhere - Am I missing it somehow? I've attached a screenshot.
                                                                                                                • Formatting of cells changing by itself and formulas not always calculating automatically

                                                                                                                  I'm new to Sheets and have been setting up a budgeting template that has many linked tabs. It's going fairly well except certain quirky things have been happening from time to time. 1- sometimes when I scroll up or down I lose formatting from a random
                                                                                                                • Unable to open iOS Zoho CRM app

                                                                                                                  i am unable to open Zoho CRM iOS App in iPhone 14 Pro Max v18.5 and it is crashing immediately after i click to open
                                                                                                                • Whatsapp BOT with CRM

                                                                                                                  Hello, how do you use Whatsapp integrations in zoho CRM?
                                                                                                                • sync two zoho crm

                                                                                                                  Hello everyone. Is it possible to sync 2 zoho crm? what would be the easiest way? I am thinking of Flow. I have a Custom Module that I would like to share with my client. We both use zoho crm. Regards.
                                                                                                                • Side-by-Side view on Windows 11

                                                                                                                  Is there a way to open two notes in a side-by-side view? I'm running Notebook on a Desktop running Windows 11. If this feature doesn't exist, do you have plans for it?
                                                                                                                • Value shows in balance sheet for Goods in Transit

                                                                                                                  We have transferred goods from one warehouse to another warehouse and accepted the same at another warehouse. Although my balance sheet shows X amount as goods in transit value. I don't understand, how to clear that  Can anyone guide us please?
                                                                                                                • Ask for a quote to multple vendors

                                                                                                                  We are able to send a Purchase order, but How can we Send a quote request to our vendor, once the value changes every time? I didn't see any feature like this in Zoho Books/ Inventory. Send this request with the Items that we want to know the cost, to
                                                                                                                • Bigin merge field in email template for subject line to match lead name

                                                                                                                  Hello We Are using email in to automatically create leads in our pipelines. When we want to reply from conversations, and apply an email template, it’s not matching the original subject line. It should be lead name to match. But it’s not working. Even
                                                                                                                • How to create auto-link between Invoice and Quote in CRM

                                                                                                                  It's strange that when you 'convert' a quote into an invoice, it doesn't auto-link the two. How can we develop an auto sync so we don't need to manually link each invoice to their respective quote?
                                                                                                                • Why Are Columns Reset When Deleting Entry

                                                                                                                  Hello, this is quite annoying. We use forms as a questionnaire for candidates, we filter entries by removing columns, when we delete an entry the columns reset. Every "delete" the columns reset, why!? Thank you
                                                                                                                • Pi or Pie? A slice of infinity in customer service

                                                                                                                  Hey everyone! While Pi Day is on March 14 (3.14), July 22 marks another special occasion: Pi Approximation Day! On this day, we recognize the mathematical constant π (pi ≈ 22/7); a number that's infinite, irrational, and never-ending. Pi is essential
                                                                                                                • Configuración

                                                                                                                  Hola acabo de instalar Zoho CRM y quiero configurarlo correctamente. Al respecto me surgen algunas dudas tales como la diferencia entre: Cuentas, posibles Clientes y Contactos. ¿Conceptualmente que son cada uno? ¿Como se se relacionan entre ellos? Si
                                                                                                                • GL account associated to each supplier for new bill

                                                                                                                  Hello I'm facing problem for all items of my bills that are not inventoried. The need is each time I enter new bill and after I select supplier the GL account section is autopopulated with default GL account (that I would like to add in supplier settings)
                                                                                                                • LinkedIn verification link and otp not receiving

                                                                                                                  For the last 2 to 3 weeks I'm trying to verify my LinkedIn account to access my company's LinkedIn page, Linkedin is sending verification links and codes to this email address but I have not received any codes or links. Please help me here. Looking forward
                                                                                                                • Mail Merge Stuck in Queue

                                                                                                                  I am trying to send Mail Merge's and it never sends out to the full list. It always hits a portion and the rest remain in the "Queue" - the emails I am sending are time sensitive, so I need this to be resolved or have a way to push the emails through
                                                                                                                • SMTP Email Sending Not Working for My Domains and Apps

                                                                                                                  Hello Zoho Support Team, I am experiencing a critical issue with sending emails via Zoho SMTP for my domain humanhup.com. Both of my applications, HumanHup and CheapUI, are unable to send emails using Zoho SMTP, even though the same setup was working
                                                                                                                • Why is Zoho supporting the Proud Boys?

                                                                                                                  Hello. This is the only way I can find to contact your company. There is someone in Maine posing as a law enforcement officer, attempting to kidnap immigrants. They are also recruiting for a known hate group. They have an email address hosted by Zoho.com.
                                                                                                                • Composite Item - Associated/Component Items

                                                                                                                  I am trying to find the Associated Item/Component Item field in the Composite Item Table in Analytics. Has anyone been able to find and utilize this field in Analytics?
                                                                                                                • Use openUrl() to edit a specific record

                                                                                                                  I am working on a queue app for my organization. I have a master queue that is a report of meetings with workflow buttons to manipulate the records. One of these buttons I would like to open the record and edit for the purpose of changing the queue lookup
                                                                                                                • why i cant access my web without the www

                                                                                                                  please help me
                                                                                                                • Help Centre Articles in Desk, Zia and iframe

                                                                                                                  Hi, We embed SOP documents into articles from Scribe into using iframe. We are looking at zia indexing articles to present to agents to aid their work. Please advise if zia can view and learn from the content within the iframe?
                                                                                                                • Rich Text/WYSIWYG Input Area

                                                                                                                  I'd like to have an option on ZoHo creator to create an input text area for HTML/rich text formatting. :)
                                                                                                                • Next Page