Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    Access your files securely from anywhere

        All-in-one knowledge management and training platform for your employees and customers.







                              Zoho Developer Community




                                                    • Desk Community Learning Series


                                                    • Digest


                                                    • Functions


                                                    • Meetups


                                                    • Kbase


                                                    • Resources


                                                    • Glossary


                                                    • Desk Marketplace


                                                    • MVP Corner


                                                    • Word of the Day


                                                    • Ask the Experts





                                                              Manage your brands on social media



                                                                    Zoho TeamInbox Resources



                                                                        Zoho CRM Plus Resources

                                                                          Zoho Books Resources


                                                                            Zoho Subscriptions Resources

                                                                              Zoho Projects Resources


                                                                                Zoho Sprints Resources


                                                                                  Qntrl Resources


                                                                                    Zoho Creator Resources



                                                                                        Zoho CRM Resources

                                                                                        • CRM Community Learning Series

                                                                                          CRM Community Learning Series


                                                                                        • Kaizen

                                                                                          Kaizen

                                                                                        • Functions

                                                                                          Functions

                                                                                        • Meetups

                                                                                          Meetups

                                                                                        • Kbase

                                                                                          Kbase

                                                                                        • Resources

                                                                                          Resources

                                                                                        • Digest

                                                                                          Digest

                                                                                        • CRM Marketplace

                                                                                          CRM Marketplace

                                                                                        • MVP Corner

                                                                                          MVP Corner









                                                                                            Design. Discuss. Deliver.

                                                                                            Create visually engaging stories with Zoho Show.

                                                                                            Get Started Now


                                                                                              Zoho Show Resources

                                                                                                Zoho Writer

                                                                                                Get Started. Write Away!

                                                                                                Writer is a powerful online word processor, designed for collaborative work.

                                                                                                  Zoho CRM コンテンツ




                                                                                                    Nederlandse Hulpbronnen


                                                                                                        ご検討中の方




                                                                                                                • Recent Topics

                                                                                                                • First Respons time questions regarding ticket SLA's, Ticket Re-Assignment, and Ticket Closure.

                                                                                                                  I am chasing down a few outliers on tickets that my team is reporting to me seen in some of our Zoho Analytics Dashboards with regards to Zoho Desk with regards to First Response Time. Our support organization is setup with different SLA's based on three
                                                                                                                • Toggle Option for SQL Query Auto-Formatting

                                                                                                                  We all write SQL queries in a style that makes them clear and easy to understand. However, I’ve noticed that Zoho Analytics sometimes reformats queries in a way that reduces readability - especially when editing existing queries written in a specific
                                                                                                                • payment configuration process

                                                                                                                  payment configuration process
                                                                                                                • Lookups from Standard Modules to Custom Modules

                                                                                                                  I have created an "External Contacts" Custom Module for adding Contacts who aren't directly associated with a Customer or Vendor but who are related to Orders by being a Site Contact, Job Contact, Warehouse Contact, etc for third party. How can I go about
                                                                                                                • Run automation on quiz completion

                                                                                                                  Hello, We're exploring Zoho Learn as a possible solution to creating some training courses to external users on our system. We'd like to run a workflow/ integration to Zoho CRM when a course is completed. Is this possible?
                                                                                                                • Dynamic user applications for CPQ?

                                                                                                                  Hi, I've been enjoying getting to know CPQ, the Product Configurator and Price Rules components have been very useful, albeit with some issues. I have noticed that I don't have the power to decide which level of sales staff has permissions when it comes
                                                                                                                • Need details on search criteria for zoho.crm.searchRecords

                                                                                                                  Hi, If I understood correctly the integrated functions (getRecords, searchRecords, etc..) I can use inside Functions in Zoho CRM are actually using the Zoho CRM V2 API. I am looking for all the field types and criteria I can use with searchRecords. The
                                                                                                                • Do my notebooks get transferred to a new phone?

                                                                                                                  Hello I was wondering about a new phone and I'd like to know whether your notes are automatically transferred to the new device? Regards Will.
                                                                                                                • Client Script Error - Cannot read properties of undefined (reading 'CRM')

                                                                                                                  Hi Guys I have a custom form, and I have a client Script set for onLoad of the new form. Below is the script I have defined and the error: Cannot read properties of undefined (reading 'CRM') See Screen Shot Attachement for Details. Here is the Script:
                                                                                                                • Notebook sync

                                                                                                                  Hi,After Restart Mobil-Phone since i pressen „Synchronisation“ in my Notebook-App (iPhone) the App is hanging all the time and I have no possibility to Break up. Also Not After Restart my mobile-Phone. After the Restart ( inkl. Connection to WiFi or mobile
                                                                                                                • Employee survey data when the survey creator's account is deleted

                                                                                                                  I can’t find in the documentation on this topic, so asking here. When the employee who has created an Employee Engagement survey leaves the organisation and their Zoho account is deleted, will the survey results still be accessible to other persons if
                                                                                                                • DANE IS NOT implemented

                                                                                                                  According to the answer of @Sagar S , "DANE has been implemented". on this topic Allow me to disagree, DANE is not implemented at least not to the EU area. The Zoho domain is not under DNSSEC protection and the related TLSA DNS records
                                                                                                                • Enhance Your CRM Experience with Zoho Webinars in Sandbox Environments

                                                                                                                  Greetings all, Zoho Webinars will now be available for testing and deployment in Zoho CRM's sandbox environment. Sandboxes offer a safe way to replicate production environments and enable risk-free testing, training, and refining processes before making
                                                                                                                • Increase the elegant comparator to more than 5 users

                                                                                                                  Hi Team Requesting to increase the elegant comparators number of custom users to more than 5, this is such a crucial tool in dashboarding but 5 users is simply not enough.
                                                                                                                • No emails coming in

                                                                                                                  Hi, I am not receiving any emails, I have tried to send myself an email from another acct and I am not receiving anything, possibly for the last few days. Bit desperate as we are a nursery and not getting important emails from our parents.
                                                                                                                • Problem with Schedule Email parameters in "Send Reply to an Email" API

                                                                                                                  Hello, This is my Json script: { "fromAddress": "test@gmail.com", "toAddress": "{{8.fromAddress}}", "subject": "{{8.subject}}", "content": "{{4.result}}", "action": "reply", "isSchedule": true, "scheduleType": 6, "timeZone": "Europe/Lisbon", "scheduleTime":
                                                                                                                • What's New? - May 2025 | Zoho Backstage

                                                                                                                  Hi everyone, A May-zing month for you! As summer rolls in and event season picks up the pace, we’ve been working on a set of updates in Zoho Backstage to help make your day-to-day life a little easier. This month’s improvements are all about tackling
                                                                                                                • Integrate Zia AI into Zobot with Support for Hebrew and Bot Context

                                                                                                                  Dear Zoho SalesIQ Team, Greetings. We would like to submit a feature request that would significantly enhance the functionality and intelligence of Zobot: native integration of Zia AI into Zobot scripts and blocks—with full support for Hebrew language
                                                                                                                • Mail Merge: Need Transparent Background for Signatures

                                                                                                                  I'm using ZohoCRM and Zoho sign to send documents to customers to sign. We use zohoCRM's "Mail merge" option to create the templates. The problem is that those "Signature" fields have a solid white background so it looks like a stamp on the page instead
                                                                                                                • Zoho Flows

                                                                                                                  Basically I can't build a connection that works between Excel on OneDrive and Zoho. I wanted to have 1 flow checking on a row added to an excel file and then intiate an import of that row. I'm doing that manually now and thought that this could be automated.
                                                                                                                • Zoho time tracking with automated screenshots

                                                                                                                  Time tracking option with automated screen shots would be an exeptuonally good feature, any plans to develop something like that?
                                                                                                                • Zoho Campaigns Forms not Responsive on Website

                                                                                                                  I have a mobile responsive Zoho Sites website and when I add a Zoho Campaigns form, it is not responsive. I have used the website code and ensured that the 'responsive' checkbox is selected. But, the form is not responsive to mobile. I have attached a
                                                                                                                • Oldest mail on top?

                                                                                                                  I am old, and probably missing something simple, but how do I flip my zoho mail so oldest mail is on top?  Thanks in advance, and a HUGE thank you to the entire ZOHO team.  You just keep getting better!
                                                                                                                • Desk API to add or change commenterId to a comment

                                                                                                                  Please let me know how to add comments on tickets for different agents using the API. When adding a comment it will take commenterId but then ignores that and used the API agentId. Did not see in API docs which values are readonly. I pleased to see commentedTime worked for past times. Regards, Glenn
                                                                                                                • How send a ticket attachment using the Sendreply API in Zoho Desk

                                                                                                                  API document references : you make use of the Upload file API and gather the attachment ID. This ID is be passed with the Send email Reply API to deliver responses with the attachment intact. Code template is as below: // ORGID ORGID = "XXXXXXX"; // Masked
                                                                                                                • First Insight - Find your Fields

                                                                                                                  The Wheels of Ticketing - Desk Stories Find your Fields What are fields? Fields are crucial in ticketing modules that capture information about Tickets, Customers, Organizations, Products, and more. Depending on the kind of data being stored, users can
                                                                                                                • Automation#30: Auto-Update Time Entry to the Nearest 5 Minutes

                                                                                                                  Hello Everyone, Time tracking is a feature in Zoho Desk to help businesses stay organized and efficient. For Zylker Techfix, this feature has helped to track the duration of gadget services to generate accurate bills. However, Zylker Techfix faced a unique
                                                                                                                • Email adding to existing ticket

                                                                                                                  hello Is there some syntax i can add e.g. to the subject line / body of my email that when it reaches the Zoho portal will add the request to an existing ticket. e.g {123} Currently if i have an open ticket and a customer emails me direct, i then forward
                                                                                                                • How to define different shift timings for each weekday in Zoho People?

                                                                                                                  Hi everyone, We’re using Zoho People for attendance tracking and need to configure a standard 39-hour workweek that is structured like this: Monday to Thursday: 8 hours per day Friday: 7 hours Currently, our service provider has set up the workweek as
                                                                                                                • add two date range

                                                                                                                  Hi, How can I add two date range selections to compare two different column values in a single pivot view? I have attached a snap for your reference.
                                                                                                                • Announcing new features in Trident for Windows (v.1.26.5.0)

                                                                                                                  Hello Community, Trident for Windows is here with exciting new features to elevate your email communication and enhance productivity. Let’s dive into what’s new! Open .eml files in Trident. You can now open .eml files directly using Trident. This makes
                                                                                                                • Adjust The max character in Specification Field

                                                                                                                  Is there another way to adjust the maximum character limit for the Specifications field in Zoho Commerce? I need to accept responses with fewer than 200 characters.
                                                                                                                • Customize the Sign In And Sign Up in Zoho Commerce

                                                                                                                  Is there another way to customize the Sign In and Sign Up in website Zoho Commerce like this i want to customize to edit it like change the "Sign In" word into "Login Zoho Commerce" it is possible or other way to do that?
                                                                                                                • Territories : Deluge and APIs

                                                                                                                  I am trying to work out how to filter a deluge query by territory eg "SELECT Total_Amount, Stage, Closing_Date, Created_Time, Deal_Name FROM Deals WHERE Stage in (" + varBaseCriteria + ") AND Territory = 'Territory1'" The problem being that Territory
                                                                                                                • Tidying up messes file system on Site

                                                                                                                  I'm been given access to a new site that's been managed by several different people over the years, each with different ways of managing images and files. If I move an image from one folder to another, it shows a missing image icon on the site's page.
                                                                                                                • Move Archive Button in Zoho Mail to Main Toolbar?

                                                                                                                  Is there a way to add the Archive Button to this tool bar so I don't have to click the three dots every time?
                                                                                                                • Introducing Bigin 360: Our new pricing edition with increased feature limits and pre-installed toppings

                                                                                                                  Dear Biginners Club, Today, we're pleased to launch a brand-new pricing edition called Bigin 360, our highest pricing edition that will sit on top of Express and Premier editions. It's been over four years since our launch, and we're receiving some great
                                                                                                                • URL field display value

                                                                                                                  Is it possible to give a URL stored in a project a display value, rather than showing the whole url? I have a lot of projects connected to issues filed on a separate site, each with a distinct URL. For example: https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=40000
                                                                                                                • need payment link excl. TDS Amount.

                                                                                                                  Dear Team Zoho, Kindly generate a payment link excluding TDS amount. So that TDS can be submitted through portal. Thanks & Regards, Arijit S.
                                                                                                                • CRM is very slow now

                                                                                                                  CRM is very slow now. Plz check ASAP
                                                                                                                • Next Page