Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    Access your files securely from anywhere

        All-in-one knowledge management and training platform for your employees and customers.







                              Zoho Developer Community




                                                    • Desk Community Learning Series


                                                    • Digest


                                                    • Functions


                                                    • Meetups


                                                    • Kbase


                                                    • Resources


                                                    • Glossary


                                                    • Desk Marketplace


                                                    • MVP Corner


                                                    • Word of the Day


                                                    • Ask the Experts





                                                              Manage your brands on social media



                                                                    Zoho TeamInbox Resources



                                                                        Zoho CRM Plus Resources

                                                                          Zoho Books Resources


                                                                            Zoho Subscriptions Resources

                                                                              Zoho Projects Resources


                                                                                Zoho Sprints Resources


                                                                                  Qntrl Resources


                                                                                    Zoho Creator Resources



                                                                                        Zoho CRM Resources

                                                                                        • CRM Community Learning Series

                                                                                          CRM Community Learning Series


                                                                                        • Kaizen

                                                                                          Kaizen

                                                                                        • Functions

                                                                                          Functions

                                                                                        • Meetups

                                                                                          Meetups

                                                                                        • Kbase

                                                                                          Kbase

                                                                                        • Resources

                                                                                          Resources

                                                                                        • Digest

                                                                                          Digest

                                                                                        • CRM Marketplace

                                                                                          CRM Marketplace

                                                                                        • MVP Corner

                                                                                          MVP Corner









                                                                                            Design. Discuss. Deliver.

                                                                                            Create visually engaging stories with Zoho Show.

                                                                                            Get Started Now


                                                                                              Zoho Show Resources

                                                                                                Zoho Writer

                                                                                                Get Started. Write Away!

                                                                                                Writer is a powerful online word processor, designed for collaborative work.

                                                                                                  Zoho CRM コンテンツ



                                                                                                    Nederlandse Hulpbronnen


                                                                                                        ご検討中の方




                                                                                                                • Recent Topics

                                                                                                                • Anyone else experiencing very slow loading of pages in Zoho Projects?

                                                                                                                  I reported this yesterday only to be told there are no issues but is anyone else experiencing stupidly slow loading of pages. On our loading screen, it is taking often as long as 60 seconds to load a page and just stays on this screen for ages! Other
                                                                                                                • Zoho Desk Lookup Field Reporting

                                                                                                                  Thank you for adding the ability to add additional lookup fields for desk tickets. My question is how do you report against these fields? For example: Associating related accounts to the primary desk ticket account, I am not able to add the lookup fields
                                                                                                                • Integrating asana will cause notification messages to pop up continuously

                                                                                                                  When I create or edit a task in Asana, the Asana bot keeps updating messages to group chat, which causes the cliq to keep popping up notifications.
                                                                                                                • Entire notebook that had notes has disappeared

                                                                                                                  I don't know how tf this happened. All I did was uninstall and reinstall the mobile app after fixing a bug I had. After I reinstalled the app, everything was synced back except for one folder which had a bunch of notes in it. None of those notes are in
                                                                                                                • My site has disappeared from web builder

                                                                                                                  www.mproperties.uk My site above is still working. However it has completely disappeared from my Zoho sites' web builder. I am therefore unable to edit my site whatsoever. Please help.
                                                                                                                • Trying to trigger email notification based on rollup summary field

                                                                                                                  Hi there, I'm trying to trigger an email notification via Workflow Rules wherever the rollup summary field "Total Shipments" goes from empty to not empty. However this field is not available from the picklist of options in the Workflow rule. Can anyone
                                                                                                                • zia data enrichment - switch to webamigo Extension

                                                                                                                  Hello, I have so far used data enrichment via Zia. Now I have installed the Webamigo extension to expand personal data. Unfortunately, nothing has changed after the installation; are there any additional steps needed to switch from the previous method
                                                                                                                • Export Timeline

                                                                                                                  With the new Timeline features, it would be really helpful to have the option to export a timeline. When handling customer complaints, having the full breakdown of everything that happens on a module is great but we usually have to send this to another
                                                                                                                • Interactions Tab in Zoho CRM: A 360° Omnichannel View of Every Customer Touchpoint

                                                                                                                  Hello Everyone, Hope you are well! We are here today with yet another announcement in our series for the revamped Zoho CRM. Today, we introduce Interactions Tab a new way to view all customer interactions from one place inside your CRM account. Customers
                                                                                                                • How to resubscribe a contact marked as "Unsubscribed (Marked by Recipient)" without using a form?

                                                                                                                  Hello, I have a question regarding Zoho Marketing Automation functionality. Is there a way for an administrator to change the subscription status of a contact marked as "Unsubscribed (Marked by Recipient)" back to "Subscribed" without using a form? Ideally,
                                                                                                                • Linkedin: when Zoho Social is going serious with it?

                                                                                                                  Hi, it's been said in the past that Linkedin related features in Zoho Social were well behind those of other social networks because of limitations imposed by the platform. Now that we see around my tools (take taplio.com) frankly outpacing ZSocial on
                                                                                                                • 5名限定 課題解決型ワークショップイベント Zoho ワークアウト開催のお知らせ(7/24)

                                                                                                                  ユーザーの皆さま、こんにちは。Zoho ユーザーコミュニティチームの藤澤です。 7月開催のZoho ワークアウトについてお知らせします。 2ヶ月ぶりに、渋谷にて「リアル開催」します! ▷▷詳細はこちら:https://www.zohomeetups.com/20250724Zoho ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ Zoho ワークアウトとは? Zoho ユーザー同士で交流しながら、サービスに関する疑問や不明点の解消を目的とした「Zoho ワークアウト」を開催します。 Zoho サービスで完了させたい設定やカスタマイズ、環境の整備など……各自で決めた目標達成に向け、
                                                                                                                • How to get fields centered in a form?

                                                                                                                  Is it possible to center fields in a form? Some of my forms do some don't and it is really not aestheticly pleasing?  Any help would be greatly appricated. Thanks, Michael McNeill 
                                                                                                                • Webhooks and Integration

                                                                                                                  Hey, I was looking to create automation using webhooks or something equivalent of a trigger based mechanism, to connect it as an integration. But I don't find any relevant APIs to setup these webhooks/notifcations for the "Zoho Books". Can anyone please
                                                                                                                • Zoho Books X Zoho Expense

                                                                                                                  Hello there, Please can you tell me if it is possible to sync from Books to Expense? I much prefer the Expense reports to that of Books and the Credit Card feeds work via expense and not Books for me. However I find books is much better to deal with the
                                                                                                                • ABILITY TO LOG INTO CUSTOMER PORTAL

                                                                                                                  I think it would be very helpful to have a button in Zoho Books to be able to see the customer portal so we can see what they see to help them navigate through the portal. Many times, the customer will call about the portal, but without visibility into
                                                                                                                • Sort, filter & save views for BOOKS PROJECTS

                                                                                                                  Thanks for all the updates. Our firm uses the module for simple internal project accountancy. This means we do everything from the Projects Section but this isn't user friendly at all. You can't do anything with customized your own fields which basically
                                                                                                                • edit input format in custom field - sales order

                                                                                                                  hi, I want to integrate a custom field (multi line text box) in our sales order. It needs to show upper case and lower case letters, numbers, spaces, hyphens and "/". What do I need to put in the custom format to configure these signs? Thanks, Tina
                                                                                                                • This transaction type cannot be matched with a line on the statement.

                                                                                                                  When using the books API https://www.zohoapis.com/books/v3/banktransactions/uncategorized/${transaction.transaction_id}/match I get this error "This transaction type cannot be matched with a line on the statement." What I'm doing is for the uncategorized
                                                                                                                • Timesheets

                                                                                                                  I wanted to create the timesheets remainder for our team mates who miss out the weekly timesheet entries. While creating the email templates, I couldn't see anything related to timesheets. Since it shows projects Can you help me find and build a one
                                                                                                                • Can we embed a Kanban Type of report using iframe too?

                                                                                                                  I tried embedding a report as iFrame but it only appear as List View. It would be helpful if can also embed a Kanban Type of report.
                                                                                                                • Weekly Tips : Save Time with Saved Search

                                                                                                                  Let's assume your work requires you to regularly check emails from important clients that have attachments and were sent within a specific time period. Instead of entering the same conditions every time—like sender, date range, and attachments included—you
                                                                                                                • Hidden Fields with Data Pre-Population and Notification Integration in Zoho Bookings Forms

                                                                                                                  Dear Zoho Bookings Support Team, We'd like to propose a feature enhancement for Zoho Bookings forms that would improve data management and workflow efficiency: the ability to create hidden fields with pre-populated data. Current Functionality: Zoho Bookings
                                                                                                                • Tip #37 – How to ensure compliance and accountability using Advanced Session Audit – ‘Insider Insights’

                                                                                                                  Hello Zoho Assist Community! This week we will be discussing how to strengthen your remote support operations with better visibility and control. Let’s say your support team handles a growing number of remote sessions each day. At the end of the week,
                                                                                                                • Replace an existing zoho show file with an uploaded one.

                                                                                                                  For Zoho WorkDrive Upload API method, I have override-name-exist option, which I can use like this: curl https://www.zohoapis.eu/workdrive/api/v1/upload \ -F "filename=mypres.pptx" \ -F "parent_id=j3tzq1ae09c0cd91540df8d01670af05b657e" \ -F "override-name-exist=true"
                                                                                                                • Tip of the Week #66– Use internal comments to collaborate and resolve issues faster!

                                                                                                                  Ever found yourself stuck on a customer query because you needed inputs from your teammate? Or sent a reply too soon and realized later that someone else on your team had a better context? When you rely on back-and-forth messages in external chats or
                                                                                                                • Using Zoho One to manage two (or more) businesses

                                                                                                                  We are one company that operates two business, a scenario that Zoho One doesn't really seem to handle very well, and one which I can't imagine is at all unique to us! (It is basically designed to facilitate branding and use for one business only per subscription).
                                                                                                                • Skip order confirmation step in commerce?

                                                                                                                  We have a store to sell products that are not shipped to a customer. Right now, when the order is placed, we have to manually 'confirm' the order so the sales order can convert to an invoice and charge the customer.  Is there a way to skip the manual
                                                                                                                • Free Shipping Coupon - Zoho Commerce

                                                                                                                  I love the Zoho platform. Zoho Commerce is no exception; however, I'm struggling with a few common features I cannot find or are missing that I hope someone can help me with. Is there a way to create a coupon code for free shipping?
                                                                                                                • Is there a way to link an item to a liability account?

                                                                                                                  I collect customer deposits for certain services and hold them in a liability account. However, Zoho Books doesn't let you create an item and assign it to a liability account so how do I create an invoice with an item that records it as a deposit into
                                                                                                                • Select a balance sheet account when creating an invoice

                                                                                                                  Hi, it would be very helpfull to be able to select a balance sheet account when invoicing clients. We bill 30% of the job at signing and we would like to add to deferred revenues.  I have to create a transit revenue account and then tranfer to the right
                                                                                                                • How to work out commission in zoho commerce based on coupons

                                                                                                                  HI There Is there any way to produce report based on coupon name in zoho commerce We need to pay commission to various channels who are helping us to increase the online sales so we have number dedicated coupons assigned to the above mentioned channels
                                                                                                                • Request for Subform Styling Feature in Zoho CRM Canvas

                                                                                                                  Dear Zoho CRM Team, We have observed that in the Zoho CRM Canvas view, it is currently not possible to set presets or manage the styles of subform fields. Additionally, the ability to edit subform data directly within the Canvas view appears to be limited
                                                                                                                • How to Delete Old Tasks/Streams Assigned by Deactivated Users? 'Operation Not Permitted' Error

                                                                                                                  Hello, I’m using Zoho Mail and have several old tasks assigned to me in Tasks and Streams. These tasks were created by former employees whose accounts are now deactivated. When I try to delete these tasks, I get an "Operation Not Permitted" error. These
                                                                                                                • Zoho Books - Sales Person Contact Details on Quotes

                                                                                                                  Hi Zoho Books Team, I've had various clients ask me about showing the phone number and email of the sales person on Quotes to help eliminate any barriers to closing sales. When I tell them that it is not possible they are always surprised and say something
                                                                                                                • Related products category instead recommended products.

                                                                                                                  Hi there, It is possible to show related products of the same category (as it works in the rest of the ecommerce) instead of showing recommended products.
                                                                                                                • Uploading PDF files

                                                                                                                  How do I upload a PDF file to my ZOHO site?
                                                                                                                • How to send invoices to 2 emails?

                                                                                                                  Hi! We are sending invoices to the "Customer email" field that is defined Zoho Books and is obtained/synced from a custom email field in Zoho CRM. But in some clientes, the invoices have to be sent to 2 emails and we are wondering how this could be accomplished.
                                                                                                                • It returns 1 record

                                                                                                                  Var1= Tools_Request[Liability_Receipt == input.Liability_No]; for each rec in Var1.Tool_Request_Description { Var2= (ET_Inventory[SKU == rec.Tools_SKU].SKU).getAll(); } info call for Var2 It only fetch 1 record On record file
                                                                                                                • Narrative 5: The essential role of SLAs

                                                                                                                  Behind the scenes of a successful ticketing system - BTS Series Narrative 5: The essential role of SLAs Every organization that interacts with customers establishes a timeframe within which agents should respond to queries as part of a service level agreement
                                                                                                                • Next Page