Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    Access your files securely from anywhere







                            Zoho Developer Community




                                                  • Desk Community Learning Series


                                                  • Digest


                                                  • Functions


                                                  • Meetups


                                                  • Kbase


                                                  • Resources


                                                  • Glossary


                                                  • Desk Marketplace


                                                  • MVP Corner


                                                  • Word of the Day


                                                  • Ask the Experts





                                                            Manage your brands on social media



                                                                  Zoho TeamInbox Resources



                                                                      Zoho CRM Plus Resources

                                                                        Zoho Books Resources


                                                                          Zoho Subscriptions Resources

                                                                            Zoho Projects Resources


                                                                              Zoho Sprints Resources


                                                                                Qntrl Resources


                                                                                  Zoho Creator Resources



                                                                                      Zoho CRM Resources

                                                                                      • CRM Community Learning Series

                                                                                        CRM Community Learning Series


                                                                                      • Kaizen

                                                                                        Kaizen

                                                                                      • Functions

                                                                                        Functions

                                                                                      • Meetups

                                                                                        Meetups

                                                                                      • Kbase

                                                                                        Kbase

                                                                                      • Resources

                                                                                        Resources

                                                                                      • Digest

                                                                                        Digest

                                                                                      • CRM Marketplace

                                                                                        CRM Marketplace

                                                                                      • MVP Corner

                                                                                        MVP Corner









                                                                                          Design. Discuss. Deliver.

                                                                                          Create visually engaging stories with Zoho Show.

                                                                                          Get Started Now


                                                                                            Zoho Show Resources

                                                                                              Zoho Writer

                                                                                              Get Started. Write Away!

                                                                                              Writer is a powerful online word processor, designed for collaborative work.

                                                                                                Zoho CRM コンテンツ



                                                                                                  Nederlandse Hulpbronnen


                                                                                                      ご検討中の方




                                                                                                              • Recent Topics

                                                                                                              • Can send email from zoho mail, but can't receive any.

                                                                                                                Hi, My domain is sattvameditationresort.com. I've updated MX records with those of Zoho. But i can't send any mails to this email id from gmail. I have checked the MX status with MXTOOLS, its showing the correct entry either. The error is as shown below:
                                                                                                              • My domain did not activate

                                                                                                                Hi, my domain (apsaindustrial.com.ar) did not activate, and the phone verification message never arrived. Please would you solve this problem? Thanks.
                                                                                                              • Host not found?

                                                                                                                Howdy! So i'm trying to add my custom domain for with the mail server. I have 100% control of my DNS and have tried every single option (TXT, CNAME, and even HTML) multiple times, ensuring i did it properly, to no luck. I get the same error message every
                                                                                                              • Emails are going to notification folder and not in inbox

                                                                                                                emails are going to notification folder and not into inbox
                                                                                                              • Auto End Chats After Customer Inactivity

                                                                                                                Hello Everyone, I may be missing something, but is there a way to auto-end chats when a customer has been inactive for an amount of time? I have several operators (we use a shared set of account with schedules for people... that's another story) but at
                                                                                                              • Report on opportunities showing only the last note added.

                                                                                                                Hi I need to create a report that shows the most recent note added to each opportunity. This is so management can see what the latest update is according to the assigned salesperson. One workaround is to use the status field but this implies added manual work and mistakes as the salesperson would have to copy the existing status to a note before adding the latest status... otherwise the activity history would be lost. My current workaround is a report on Notes with Opportunities as the related module.
                                                                                                              • Please add Zelle as an online payment option

                                                                                                                Hello, I would like to request Zelle be added to the online payment service providers for Zoho Invoice. Considering how ubiquitous Zelle has become as a way to pay people via the major banking institutions, I feel like many freelancers would benefit from
                                                                                                              • Getting Project Template List using the REST API

                                                                                                                I am trying to confirm that I can use the REST API to create a project using a project template. The API documentation indicates this is possible by providing the Template ID, but it is not clear at all how to get a list of available Project Templates
                                                                                                              • How to display the CONTACT ID in the Contact page

                                                                                                                Hi, I've seen this conversation below and it is exactly the same question I'm raising now, but unfortunately the last message is not solved https://help.zoho.com/portal/community/topic/show-contact-id-while-editing-contact-form I need to show the ContactId and I don't know how to do this. The last message included in the conversaton shows the way but not it is not completed. "I am sorry by default we do not have the option to show the record ID for the contacts in the field in a record. When you
                                                                                                              • How to change margins in templates

                                                                                                                Hi, I'm new to Zoho Campaigns, and am trying to figure out how to adjust the margins within an email template.  The default margins make the text go all the way to the edges of the page.  Please advise.
                                                                                                              • Create Canvas list view templates from images powered by Zia

                                                                                                                Currently available for all paid editions of Zoho CRM in the US, EU, IN, JP & CN DCs. Designing a personalized CRM interface just got even easier. In today’s fast-evolving digital landscape, AI is transforming the way we work by automating complex tasks
                                                                                                              • Painfully Slow Zoho mail

                                                                                                                Since yesterday Zoho Mail seems to have starting functioning very slowly and having a few bugs. It's slow to open mails, slow to send, slow to change between email accounts. Sometimes clicking on a particular folder (eg Sent folder) stops working and
                                                                                                              • "Wrong password or login" Problem to configure Zoho on MAIL App on my Macbook

                                                                                                                Hi, I'm having problems to configure my e-mail on my MAIL App(Macbook pro). My e-mail is hari@trespontoum.net Actually was working perfectly, and still working on my Iphone. My MAIL App prompt me that my login or password is wrong. I tried to change 3
                                                                                                              • "User already exist in your org"

                                                                                                                Hello, I've just read a discussion about this issue, which didn't solve my problem. I'm trying to add the following emails: sales@kiss-my-boutique.co.uk returns@kiss-my-boutique.co.uk orders@kiss-my-boutique.co.uk I'm getting an error message each time I try and add them. None of them are primary or secondary emails and none of them have been created as users before. I know this as when I try and login and do 'forgot my password' all I get is an error message saying 'user invalid'. Please advise.
                                                                                                              • Operation Not Permitted

                                                                                                                Hi, I have problem in adding user after verifying the domain but it seems like error appeared which is "operation not permitted". For your information, I had delete other domain before did it.
                                                                                                              • Email forwarding setup fails

                                                                                                                I'm trying to set up email forwarding from my Zoho email to my gmail address. I followed the directions to set up email forwarding here: https://www.zoho.com/mail/help/email-forwarding.html. I did only steps 1-6. After doing this, rather than setting
                                                                                                              • Shopify store email issues- Not getting emails

                                                                                                                Hi We have migrated from Microsoft outlook to Zoho back in March, we have a shopify store, the domain is hosted on namesilo, not shopify, I have seen some people here complaining about not getting emails from customers who fill out the contact form on
                                                                                                              • How do I fix this? Unable to send message; Reason:554 5.1.8 Email Outgoing Blocked.

                                                                                                                How do I fix this? Unable to send message; Reason:554 5.1.8 Email Outgoing Blocked.
                                                                                                              • Invoice Discount Account

                                                                                                                Is there a way to change the account used for Discounts applied to an invoice? The current Discount account (ZB native account) type is an "Income" type. I would like to change it to "Other Income", but that is not possible, I am assuming because it contains
                                                                                                              • Need Inactive accounts to be visible in Reports in Zoho Books

                                                                                                                I N=need Inactive accounts to be visible in Reports in Zoho Books to do recons of the accounts but when i see the same they are not visible in the Accountant - Account Transactions report
                                                                                                              • javax.mail.authenticationfailedexception 535 authentication failed

                                                                                                                Hi, I am facing 535 authentication failed error when trying to send email from zoho desktop as well as in webmail. Can you suggest to fix this issue,. Regards, Rekha
                                                                                                              • Phantom Opening Balance

                                                                                                                While experimenting w/ creating a composite item, Zoho added funds to Petty Cash and added Bank Account equal to previous day's balance. I'm unable to undo the adding of funds. Attaching screenshots of both bank account and petty cash transactions.
                                                                                                              • Importing customer comments and multiple shipto addresses

                                                                                                                I am evaluating Zoho Books and have most of my data imported with two exceptions: (1) Import customer comments - in my current system I have several comments of different types, and I need to bring these into Zoho. Preferably Books customer records, but
                                                                                                              • Detailed Account Reports - Add Running Balance

                                                                                                                When one clicks into an account from a report (say P/L or Balance Sheet), the default reports have the Debit, Credit, and then the Amount. The Amount column (last one) is duplicate information. It would be far better and fit more peoples' use cases if
                                                                                                              • How to Billed from two different GST Numbers

                                                                                                                How to Billed from two different GST Numbers. Suppose ABC & Co had GST registration in Delhi and Haryana and Zoho account is created with Delhi GST Registration number. Now i also want to issue invoice from Haryana GST Registration number. How can i proceed ?
                                                                                                              • Zoho IP blocked by SpamHaus

                                                                                                                ERROR CODE :550 - 5.7.0 Your server IP address is in the SpamHaus SBL-XBL database, bye
                                                                                                              • IMAP Communication Problems - IMAP Down Again

                                                                                                                We are experiencing the same problems over the last week or so that were supposedly 'solved' according to this thread. Zoho Imap Down Again This is affecting attempts to use IMAP on multiple ISPs and users so is definitely narrowed down to Zoho problems.
                                                                                                              • Can't login to Zoho mail

                                                                                                                I'm logged into Zoho but when I try to go in zoho mail I get: Invalid request! The input passed is invalid or the URL is invoked without valid parameters. Please check your input and try again. I just set up my mx records and stuff with namecheap a few
                                                                                                              • Hotmail is STILL blocking the zoho mail IP

                                                                                                                Greetings, as I already mentioned in my last message, my Zoho IP has been blocked by Hotmail for more than 15 days. Although someone said that the issue was "solved," it still isn't, and this amount of time seems neither normal for a "serious" company,
                                                                                                              • Keyboard shortcut M key

                                                                                                                I'm trying to customize my keyboard shortcuts and assign the "m" key. But it says the key is already assigned. I've looked through all my shortcuts and can't see any assigned "m". When I select an email and press the M key, nothing happens. What is the
                                                                                                              • Manage customer access across multi-brand help centers

                                                                                                                Hello everyone! Managing customer's access across multiple brands has been streamlined with the ability to invite, reinvite, approve, reject, and deactivate contacts individually for each help center brand . This enhancement gives administrators precise
                                                                                                              • White Label certificate

                                                                                                                Hi all, About 72 hours ago, we fulfilled all steps for white labeling (CNAME to point to mail.cs.zohohost.eu), but since then the configuration page is now stuck at "generating certificate" since 3 days. When I execute an NSLOOKUP mail.webfoundry.be it
                                                                                                              • Unusual activity detected from this IP. Please try again after some time

                                                                                                                When i try to create new addresses on my account i am getting this error, it has been 24 hours now and i am still getting this error can anyone help
                                                                                                              • How to add a new domain in my account?

                                                                                                                Probably zoho has the worst UI in the market. Cannot add a new domain to manage a new email address.
                                                                                                              • Report sorting not working

                                                                                                                I make extensive use of Summary reports and Pivot Tables. Most of these reports are structured such that I have several columns of "information" data that I want displayed, followed by one or more "Data" summarizations. For example, I have the following
                                                                                                              • New Enhancements in Wizards

                                                                                                                Dear All, Wizards help you break a long form into a series of smaller forms on different screens, making it less overwhelming. We are thrilled to introduce a couple of enhancements to wizards in Zoho CRM: Enhancements for conditional rules in Wizards
                                                                                                              • Find and Merge Duplicates to trigger webhook

                                                                                                                My sales team uses the Find and Merge Duplicates feature often to cleanup records in the CRM. We use webhooks to signal to our internal tools database when new Contacts are created, updated, or deleted, in order to keep our DB in sync with Zoho CRM. However,
                                                                                                              • Charting the 2025 Voyage: Zoho Invoice's Year in Review

                                                                                                                2025 has been a year of progress, productivity, and purposeful growth for Zoho Invoice. From expanding into new regions to refining everyday workflows, each update was designed to help businesses stay compliant, get paid faster, and work with confidence.
                                                                                                              • How to Hide System-DefinedTemplates in Service Report

                                                                                                                Is there any option available to hide system-defined templates? these templates are causing confusion for field users.
                                                                                                              • WhatsApp Report in Bigin CRM

                                                                                                                Reporting feature for Bigin CRM’s integrated WhatsApp that provides insights such as: Number of WhatsApp conversations closed Number of messages sent and received Number of conversations replied to Response and closure metrics for WhatsApp chats More
                                                                                                              • Next Page