Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    Access your files securely from anywhere







                            Zoho Developer Community




                                                  • Desk Community Learning Series


                                                  • Digest


                                                  • Functions


                                                  • Meetups


                                                  • Kbase


                                                  • Resources


                                                  • Glossary


                                                  • Desk Marketplace


                                                  • MVP Corner


                                                  • Word of the Day


                                                  • Ask the Experts





                                                            Manage your brands on social media



                                                                  Zoho TeamInbox Resources



                                                                      Zoho CRM Plus Resources

                                                                        Zoho Books Resources


                                                                          Zoho Subscriptions Resources

                                                                            Zoho Projects Resources


                                                                              Zoho Sprints Resources


                                                                                Qntrl Resources


                                                                                  Zoho Creator Resources



                                                                                      Zoho CRM Resources

                                                                                      • CRM Community Learning Series

                                                                                        CRM Community Learning Series


                                                                                      • Kaizen

                                                                                        Kaizen

                                                                                      • Functions

                                                                                        Functions

                                                                                      • Meetups

                                                                                        Meetups

                                                                                      • Kbase

                                                                                        Kbase

                                                                                      • Resources

                                                                                        Resources

                                                                                      • Digest

                                                                                        Digest

                                                                                      • CRM Marketplace

                                                                                        CRM Marketplace

                                                                                      • MVP Corner

                                                                                        MVP Corner









                                                                                          Design. Discuss. Deliver.

                                                                                          Create visually engaging stories with Zoho Show.

                                                                                          Get Started Now


                                                                                            Zoho Show Resources

                                                                                              Zoho Writer

                                                                                              Get Started. Write Away!

                                                                                              Writer is a powerful online word processor, designed for collaborative work.

                                                                                                Zoho CRM コンテンツ



                                                                                                  Nederlandse Hulpbronnen


                                                                                                      ご検討中の方




                                                                                                              • Recent Topics

                                                                                                              • Delete Inactive Zoho Accounts - Access Cleanup_User Id: 60001640923

                                                                                                                As part of our Zoho access hygiene, we’ve reviewed and deactivated several inactive user accounts. These accounts have not been used in the past year and are no longer tied to active operations. All access rights have been revoked, and records retained
                                                                                                              • Inappropriate Removal of Features

                                                                                                                It's the first with any software where I am experiencing that an existing customer has some of his exiting features removed. Moreover, new Zoho One users are paying less than us. Is this going to be Zoho's "normal behaviour". If so, it is going to be
                                                                                                              • Filtering report embeded in page

                                                                                                                Right now we are using a page variable to filter a report on a page. However, it being a page variable makes it reset if you go to another report/form, we want the filter to be kept the same. I tried using an application variable according to zoho you
                                                                                                              • Zia summarizes your IM bot chats in real time

                                                                                                                Hello everyone! Let's say you’re an agent taking over a chat where a customer was booking a flight through a bot on WhatsApp. They've already shared key details, like their destination, travel date, and number of passengers. You need to understand the
                                                                                                              • Megamenu

                                                                                                                Finally! Megamenu's are now available in Zoho-Sites, after waiting for it and requesting it for years! BUT ... why am I asked to upgrade in order to use a megamenu? First: Zoho promised to always provide premium versions and options for all included Zoho-applications
                                                                                                              • Cancel and refund

                                                                                                                Hi, Yesterday I paid for the Zoho email subscription. Within a few minutes, I realized that the subscription counts one email ID as one user. To make another email ID for the same domain name, I'd have to pay for another user. I emailed right away to
                                                                                                              • Kaizen# 209 - Answering Your Questions | All About Client Script

                                                                                                                Hello everyone! Welcome back to another exciting Kaizen post! Thanks for all your feedback and questions. In this post, let's see the answers to your questions related to Client Script. We took the time to discuss with our development team, carefully
                                                                                                              • To Do: shareable task links without login

                                                                                                                Hi! I’m using Zoho Mail and ToDo in my daily work, and I’ve run into one limitation that’s a real blocker for me. Right now, to share tasks with managers or directors, they need to have a Zoho account and be added to a group. In practice, many of them
                                                                                                              • Ability to turn off "Would you like this amount to be reflected in the Payment field?" message

                                                                                                                Team, Is there any way to turn off the message" Would you like this amount to be reflected in the Payment field?" when I make a payment? This is so annoying. This happens EVERY TIME I put an amount in the Payment Made field.
                                                                                                              • Unlock agreement intelligence with Zoho Sign's latest AI updates

                                                                                                                Hello! If you've been struggling with long, complex agreements and spending way too much time on them, here's exactly what you'll want to hear: Zoho Sign now integrates with OpenAI's ChatGPT to make agreement management smarter and simpler. Acting like
                                                                                                              • Currency abbreviations

                                                                                                                Hello, Im stuck, and need help. I need the currency fields for example, opportunity value, or total revenue, to be abbreviated, lets say for 1,000 - 1K, 1,000,000 - 1M, and so on, how should I do this?
                                                                                                              • Embed Sign Document

                                                                                                                Has anyone tried embedding a document in a webpage? I'm building a webpage (using PowerPage) and I'm trying to embed it using an iframe then I got this error: Refused to display 'https://sign.zoho.com/' in a frame because it set 'X-Frame-Options' to
                                                                                                              • We’re transitioning from Zoho ShowTime to TrainerCentral

                                                                                                                Hello everyone, Zoho ShowTime was originally built as a training platform to serve training agencies, HR teams, and individual trainers. As the platform grew, we realized that more creators and businesses could benefit from its capabilities. That’s why
                                                                                                              • Emails Are Not Being Delivered to My Inbox

                                                                                                                Hello Zoho Support Team, I am experiencing an issue with my Zoho Mail account. The most important problem is that emails are not being delivered to my inbox. Details: My Zoho Mail address: info@coreforcelife.com What happens: I am not receiving any incoming
                                                                                                              • Radar In Focus: Track customer support metrics using Radar's static reports

                                                                                                                Hello everyone, Welcome back to the Radar In Focus series, where we explore how Radar features can add value to your business. In this episode, we're looking at Radar static reports. The help desk is filled with vast amounts of data that can be analyzed
                                                                                                              • Mail ToDo & Tasks Webhooks

                                                                                                                Our company uses Zoho ToDo inside Mail to manage our tasks. When I create a task and assign it to a team member it does not notify them unless I add a reminder via mail. I'm trying to create a webhook for when a task is created to send a cliq message
                                                                                                              • Improved UI for a Seamless User Experience - Calls, Tasks, and Meetings

                                                                                                                Hello all, We are making UI unification across CRM so that the UI experience is seamless across the product. As part of that effort, we have made changes to the details page of activity-based module records—Meetings, Calls, and Tasks. Let's look at these
                                                                                                              • Where can I find rejected inbound mails and their reason for rejection

                                                                                                                Hi, I was recently made aware by a mailing list which I am subscribed to (ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org) that my Zoho mail Mail account is rejecting some emails. If I look under Admin Panel > Security & Compliance > Quarantine > Incoming, the list there is
                                                                                                              • Refund

                                                                                                                Hi There, Please refund me asap possible, because of no support given. Thank you
                                                                                                              • تغيير عمله الدفع"Change payment currency"

                                                                                                                ما هى طريقه تغيير عمله الدفع "ما هي طريقة تغيير عملة الدفع؟"
                                                                                                              • Attention API Users: Upcoming Support for Renaming System Fields

                                                                                                                Hello all! We are excited to announce an upcoming enhancement in Zoho CRM: support for renaming system-defined fields! Current Behavior Currently, system-defined fields returned by the GET - Fields Metadata API have display_label and field_label properties
                                                                                                              • Zia's ability to generate and improve content extended to Desk mobile app (iOS and Android)

                                                                                                                In support, agents will have to understand customers' pain points completely to provide empathetic personalized solutions and a positive experience. However, at times, agents might find it challenging to comprehend the customer issues and connect with
                                                                                                              • BANK FEED - MAYBANK , provider from YODLEE IS NOT WORKING

                                                                                                                As per topic, the provider YODLEE is not working for the BANK FEED. It have been reported since 2023 Q3, and second report on 2023 Q4. now almost end of 2024 Q1, and coming to 2024 Q2. Malaysia Bank Maybank is NOT working. can anyone check on this issue?
                                                                                                              • Zoho Sign product updates - Q3 2025

                                                                                                                Hello everyone! Q3 was all about AI. Here's the list of features and enhancements that have gone live, along with a list of what we have in pipeline for the last quarter: AI-powered agreement management Sending documents and authenticating recipients
                                                                                                              • Zoho sites header

                                                                                                                Good day, Im stuck with this situation. I choose a template for my website creation. I have tweaked every instance of the visual editor, regarding the header, I have created created customize fonts presets... I have followed every single step. and my
                                                                                                              • Kaizen #152 - Client Script Support for the new Canvas Record Forms

                                                                                                                Hello everyone! Have you ever wanted to trigger actions on click of a canvas button, icon, or text mandatory forms in Create/Edit and Clone Pages? Have you ever wanted to control how elements behave on the new Canvas Record Forms? This can be achieved
                                                                                                              • DNS set up

                                                                                                                I want to create an email with my company domain. When I tried to add new record with cloudflare it didn't work. The DNS record can't be manually added. I followed the instruction but still can't add it. Could you help?
                                                                                                              • Pocket from Mozilla is closing shop. Don’t lose your favorites . Move them to Zoho Mail Bookmarks now! 📥🔖

                                                                                                                The end of Pocket shouldn't mean the end of your important links and content. Easily import them into Zoho Mail's Bookmarks and continue right where you left off. You can bring over your entire Saves, Collections, and tags just the way they are. Bookmarks
                                                                                                              • General suggestions

                                                                                                                Hello, I've picked this forum as it is at the top of the list! :) First suggestion: A general forum for issues and comments that are not specific to a particular Zoho application. Second suggestion: Put a link on the home page to "Zoho Identity Access Manager" The first suggestion came about because I didn't know where to post the second! ;) Regards Mark
                                                                                                              • Can't upload attachments.

                                                                                                                I can't upload attachment in Zoho Mail.
                                                                                                              • Need Guidance on SPF Flattening for Zoho Mail Configuration

                                                                                                                Hi everyone, I'm hoping to get some advice on optimizing my SPF record for a Zoho Mail setup. I use Zoho Mail along with several other Zoho services, and as a result, my current SPF record has grown to include multiple include mechanisms. My Cloudflare
                                                                                                              • How use

                                                                                                                Good morning sir I tried Zoho Mail
                                                                                                              • Zoho Mail Desktop App Not Loading + Can’t Manage Multiple Accounts

                                                                                                                Hi everyone, I’ve been having ongoing issues with the Zoho Mail desktop app for the past few weeks. The app starts to load but gives up midway and never actually opens — there’s no error message, it just stops loading. The main reason I use the desktop
                                                                                                              • Error when sending emails from Zoho

                                                                                                                Hello, When trying to send an email from Zoho CRM I keep getting the below error: javax.mail.AuthenticationFailedException: 535 5.7.139 Authentication unsuccessful, the user credentials were incorrect. Any support on this will be much appreciated. Thanks,
                                                                                                              • Not all emails from outlook365 migrated to my new zoho account

                                                                                                                I recently setup a new email address hosted by zoho. I migrated all my folders and email from my Outlook365 account to my new zoho account, but not all my emails migrated. Looks like only the past 12 months, or so, made the move. How do I get the rest
                                                                                                              • Max numbr of IMAP Accounts in Zoho Mail?

                                                                                                                In Zoho mail, you can manage the inboxes of other accounts using IMAP (and POP, actually) https://www.zoho.com/mail/help/external-imap-accounts.html Is there a max to the number of inboxes we can add?
                                                                                                              • Formula Fields Trouble

                                                                                                                Hi,  I can't get even a simple formula field to work and must be doing something dumb. This formula: If(Len(Trim(${Quotes.Subject}))=0,1,2) Gives the error: You used the wrong type of data in an argument. Check what you entered between the parentheses of your functions to make sure you put the right kind of data in the right place. This formula: Len(Trim(${Quotes.Subject}))=0 Gives the error: Syntax Error. Check the examples for any functions you're using to see if you formatted them correctly. Make
                                                                                                              • OPTED FOR STORAGE BY DESCRIPTIVE MISGUIDANCE

                                                                                                                We've opened a domain with three mail ids and payment has also been processed now the bill raised is for single use ID with additional storage capacity. Kindly request you to modify the purchase.
                                                                                                              • How can I add a new organization on Zoho Campaign

                                                                                                                I want to create a new organization with my Zoho Campaign
                                                                                                              • www.abc.com is working but abc.com is not

                                                                                                                I have my domain in godaddy. I have created a website using zoho sites and now I want to publish it and I tried doing it. Mapped the domain www.abc.com, abc.com. In godaddy changed the CNAME values. A, @ was parked and updated with zoho's IP address.
                                                                                                              • Next Page