Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    Access your files securely from anywhere

        All-in-one knowledge management and training platform for your employees and customers.







                              Zoho Developer Community




                                                    • Desk Community Learning Series


                                                    • Digest


                                                    • Functions


                                                    • Meetups


                                                    • Kbase


                                                    • Resources


                                                    • Glossary


                                                    • Desk Marketplace


                                                    • MVP Corner


                                                    • Word of the Day


                                                    • Ask the Experts





                                                              Manage your brands on social media



                                                                    Zoho TeamInbox Resources



                                                                        Zoho CRM Plus Resources

                                                                          Zoho Books Resources


                                                                            Zoho Subscriptions Resources

                                                                              Zoho Projects Resources


                                                                                Zoho Sprints Resources


                                                                                  Qntrl Resources


                                                                                    Zoho Creator Resources



                                                                                        Zoho CRM Resources

                                                                                        • CRM Community Learning Series

                                                                                          CRM Community Learning Series


                                                                                        • Kaizen

                                                                                          Kaizen

                                                                                        • Functions

                                                                                          Functions

                                                                                        • Meetups

                                                                                          Meetups

                                                                                        • Kbase

                                                                                          Kbase

                                                                                        • Resources

                                                                                          Resources

                                                                                        • Digest

                                                                                          Digest

                                                                                        • CRM Marketplace

                                                                                          CRM Marketplace

                                                                                        • MVP Corner

                                                                                          MVP Corner









                                                                                            Design. Discuss. Deliver.

                                                                                            Create visually engaging stories with Zoho Show.

                                                                                            Get Started Now


                                                                                              Zoho Show Resources

                                                                                                Zoho Writer

                                                                                                Get Started. Write Away!

                                                                                                Writer is a powerful online word processor, designed for collaborative work.

                                                                                                  Zoho CRM コンテンツ



                                                                                                    Nederlandse Hulpbronnen


                                                                                                        ご検討中の方




                                                                                                                • Recent Topics

                                                                                                                • Pre-Registration - Suggestion

                                                                                                                  Suggest to add a Pre-Registration feature for non-scheduled events. Scenario is that we have a training academy and would like to collect pre-registrants prior to an actual scheduled event so we can use this as a basis for demand management and scheduling of new events for those expressing interest.
                                                                                                                • Not all messages showing in folders in iOS mail.app

                                                                                                                  I have a bunch of emails filed in various folders. Those folders are showing all of the emails in them on Zoho.com and in the Zoho Mail app on my iPhone and my iPad. They also all show up fine in Mail.app on my Mac. The problem is that certain (not all)
                                                                                                                • Where do the 'Archived' mails go?

                                                                                                                  I have hit 'Archive' on quite some mails I still needed, but didn't want in my inbox anymore. I obviously thought 'Archive' is not the same as 'Delete', since they don't even pass the trash folder this way, and right now I was looking for one of those
                                                                                                                • Signature image size changing on replied emails

                                                                                                                  Hi, Sometimes I see the size of the image I use as signature changes when I open replied emails. Do you know why is this happening? It doesn't seem to happen when I send emails to Gmail though. Signature should look like in attachment "Signature_normal.jpg"
                                                                                                                • Não consigo enviar emails. "Razão:533"

                                                                                                                  Não consigo enviar emails. "Razão: 533 Relaying disallowed. Invalid Domain" aparece e me impede de enviar emails... Como resolver o problema?
                                                                                                                • Error when setting up IMAP access in Gmail

                                                                                                                  Hi I set up POP3 access via Gmail for my Zoho-hosted domain email. I just tried to change it to IMAP access, however when inputting the settings I received the following error message from Gmail "Missing +OK response upon connecting to the server: * OK
                                                                                                                • Zoholics Europe 2025: Unlocking the Power of Zoho CRM : A Hands-On Workshop

                                                                                                                  Why should you attend? At Zoholics Europe 2025, Zoho’s official user conference, you’ll have the opportunity to connect directly with experts and explore powerful tools that help businesses elevate customer experiences. Be sure to attend one of the most
                                                                                                                • How do I delte a mailbox alias

                                                                                                                  Hi everyome, I have created a mailbox alias on one of my accounts, but I can't figure out how to delete it again. When I go into the control panel on my super-admin account and click on user details and the settings for the user, I can see the mailbox
                                                                                                                • Allowing vendors to Upload Purchase Invoices against Purchase Order

                                                                                                                  Work Flow: Once Project is executed, We send Purchase order to every Vendors asking them to Share the invoice against the same. Most of the time Vendors Send invoices through Mails but our Finance Team miss to book those Purchase Invoices in Zoho Books.
                                                                                                                • Deluge - forward incoming email with original attachments and content but new subject

                                                                                                                  I'm working in ZohoMail with a 10GB paid account. Using a filter and a custom function, I can send a new mail with the original email content and a new subject, but I'm struggling to find how to attach the original attachment to a new mail - or even to
                                                                                                                • Error: "The conversation window has expired." on WhatsApp

                                                                                                                  Hello, I would like to know why this error appears in the messages within WhatsApp from the CRM: "The conversation window has expired." The question arises because a potential client sent us a message at 11:00 PM and we are responding the next day at
                                                                                                                • How to Sync Desk KB and Sales IQ KB?

                                                                                                                  Hi, we have just started to use Desk and are using the SalesIQ Chat. Ideally I'd like to use the 'FAQ' feature on chat (which uses SalesIQ KB) and also allow our customers to use the self-service KB that comes with Desk. Unfortunately they are two different
                                                                                                                • Need help! Unable to send message; Reason: 554 5.1.8 Email Outgoing Blocked.

                                                                                                                  Hi Zoho team My account name is senpai.atelier, it’s been few days I can’t send Emails with the same error messages. I’ve raised the issue to support@zohomail.com that doesn’t respond to my query. I wonder if you may help troubleshooting soon.
                                                                                                                • Zoho arrives to Spam on all Microsoft Accounts (Outlook, Hotmail, Microsoft 365)

                                                                                                                  I believe this is a very serious issue. All my email accounts in Zoho arrives straight to SPAM. Thing is, a lot of clients rely on email arriving to Inbox, specially on Microsoft Accounts since it is used a lot both for business and personal email sending.
                                                                                                                • Registeration

                                                                                                                  I just added the TXT code. What next?
                                                                                                                • Cannot receive password protected zip files

                                                                                                                  Hello, I cannot received a password protected attachments. Also all my members in the same domain has the same problems. Can you please help me? Best regrads
                                                                                                                • ERROR 554 5.1.8 Sender Address Blocked code(554)

                                                                                                                  We have an email with Zoho ( comercial@bruiser.com.br), but, when we try associate the account in GMAIL, the server shows this message:  554 5.1.8 Sender Address Blocked code(554) I see this error appear when the limits of returns exceded 10 messages,
                                                                                                                • Zoho mail stopped receiving emails

                                                                                                                  Our email are stopped to receive outsider email. i have checked the DSN, it's pointed to ZOho mail. Can anyone help me to fix this issue urgently? Thanks
                                                                                                                • send email from web application

                                                                                                                  Hello, I'm experiencing an issue with sending emails from my web application. Here are the configuration parameters currently in use: ini Copia Modifica quarkus.mailer.from=noreply.sedis@mondonovo.net quarkus.mailer.host=smtp.zoho.com quarkus.mailer.port=465
                                                                                                                • Custom CSS in Zoho Form

                                                                                                                  Hi, Please let me know, how we can add custom css in Zoho Form.  Thanks
                                                                                                                • Zoho Recruit

                                                                                                                  Getting this issue
                                                                                                                • Missing Email

                                                                                                                  We recently started using ZohoMail we migrated our users from google workspaces. The migration process seemed to have gone smoothly however not all emails are showing in the inbox folder. For example: If I sort the inbox folder from old to new. (Oldest
                                                                                                                • Client Script Quality of Life Improvements #1

                                                                                                                  Since I'm doing quite a bit of client scripting, I wanted to advise the Zoho Dev teams about some items I have found in client script that could be improved upon. A lot of these are minor, but I feel are important none-the-less. Show Error on Subform
                                                                                                                • Account blocked after accessing via VPN

                                                                                                                  All my accounts are blocked after using a VPN. I have submitted multiple support tickets without response. It’s critical that my email be restored asap Can you please provide a way to unblock my accounts
                                                                                                                • Courses without signup

                                                                                                                  Can I create "real" public courses where no signup is needed?
                                                                                                                • Espace Sandbox – Votre environnement de test sécurisé dans Zoho Projects

                                                                                                                  Zoho Projects propose un sandbox sécurisé pour tester des configurations, des personnalisations et des modifications sans compromettre les données en production. Note : Disponible avec le plan Enterprise le plus récent basé sur les utilisateurs (y compris
                                                                                                                • Descargas en learn

                                                                                                                  Buenos dias, yo en mis cursos para no tener que cargar los archivos que utilizare en las lecciones decidi utilizar la opcion de bloques para añadir un enlace de mi workdrive con el video que deseo para que sea todo mas organizado, pero hay un problema.
                                                                                                                • Mail delivery

                                                                                                                  I initially had a problem sending any outgoing mail and was able to fix it on my own, given Zoho support never got back to me. However, despite being able to send emails now, none of my mail to different Gmail addresses are arriving, and they are not
                                                                                                                • Mermaid Support & Zoho Learn

                                                                                                                  Hi Zoho Team, I’m currently working with Zoho Learn and was wondering if there’s any way to add support for Mermaid syntax to create flowcharts, sequence diagrams, and other visual elements within articles or lessons. Mermaid is widely used in technical
                                                                                                                • Blocked due to VPN

                                                                                                                  Hi My account outgoing mails and IMAP access have been blocked due to using a vpn being interpreted as suspicious logins. I’ve tried to mail support but not sure if this is also blocked. This is extremely frustrating as I’m using a vpn because I’m travelling
                                                                                                                • reset admin access.

                                                                                                                  I am a user under the domain @lanutraceuticals.com. I do not have admin access. Kindly let me know the administrator contact or help me reset admin access.”
                                                                                                                • Unsubscripation booked domin

                                                                                                                  Kindly Un subscription booked domain
                                                                                                                • How to change Super Admin

                                                                                                                  Good Day, Can someone kindly guide me on how to change the super Administrator. I have tried many times but could not succeed.
                                                                                                                • Events disappearing in Calendar

                                                                                                                  To reproduce the bug: 1.- Add a new event in Calendar 2.- Type any name for the Event 3.- Click "Create" 4.- The event appears 5.- Click on the event to open it 6.- Optional: Edit the event 7.- Click OK 8.- After two seconds, the event disappears Now, click on another day and then come back to the inserted event's day. The event appears.
                                                                                                                • Mail transfer to a contact with multiple accounts

                                                                                                                  Hi, Since we can only associate one email for a Contact across Zoho, would it be a problem if we want to merge our mailbox in the future? For example, Mr. Jones is the main POC for 5 accounts, once we merge our mail where would the messages go-- is it
                                                                                                                • @mention not working in Mail

                                                                                                                  Am I missing something? When trying to forward a message there is a hint you could do this also by "@mention" at the end of the message. When typing (for example) "@s.." there should appear addresses from my contacts, shouldn´t it? But nothing happens! So what can I do? Best regards and thanks for any help in advance! JH P.S.: Sorry for my bad English.
                                                                                                                • Enable Zia-Powered Deluge Assistance and AI Agent Without Mandatory OpenAI Integration

                                                                                                                  Hi Zoho Creator Team, Hope you're doing well. We’d like to request a feature enhancement related to Zia's AI capabilities in Zoho Creator, particularly regarding Deluge Assistance and the AI Agent. Currently, as shown in your documentation (Generate Deluge
                                                                                                                • Zoho Sign community meetup series - India

                                                                                                                  Hello everyone! Zoho Sign is a comprehensive digital signature application tailor-made for Indian businesses with unique features like Aadhaar eSign, eStamping, USB/PFX signing. We are now excited to announce our first meetup series for Zoho Sign in India,
                                                                                                                • Product Updates in Zoho Workplace applications | June 2025

                                                                                                                  Hello Workplace Community, Let’s take a look at the new features and enhancements that went live across all Workplace applications this June. Zoho Mail Slideshow view for inline images in Notes View all your inline images added in a notes in a effortlessly
                                                                                                                • Assign multiple vendors to the same product

                                                                                                                  Guys, My business often purchase the same product from several vendors (based on price and availability). Is it possible to assign more than one vendor to the same product? I saw this same question in this forum, from some time ago. Is this feature available or, at least, in Zoho's roadmap? If not, is there any trick to solve my problem? Without this feature, I simply cannot manage my company's inventory, limiting very much the use of Zoho CRM. Waiting for your reply. Leonardo Kuba Sao Paulo / Brazil
                                                                                                                • Next Page