Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    Access your files securely from anywhere

        All-in-one knowledge management and training platform for your employees and customers.







                              Zoho Developer Community




                                                    • Desk Community Learning Series


                                                    • Digest


                                                    • Functions


                                                    • Meetups


                                                    • Kbase


                                                    • Resources


                                                    • Glossary


                                                    • Desk Marketplace


                                                    • MVP Corner


                                                    • Word of the Day


                                                    • Ask the Experts





                                                              Manage your brands on social media



                                                                    Zoho TeamInbox Resources



                                                                        Zoho CRM Plus Resources

                                                                          Zoho Books Resources


                                                                            Zoho Subscriptions Resources

                                                                              Zoho Projects Resources


                                                                                Zoho Sprints Resources


                                                                                  Qntrl Resources


                                                                                    Zoho Creator Resources



                                                                                        Zoho CRM Resources

                                                                                        • CRM Community Learning Series

                                                                                          CRM Community Learning Series


                                                                                        • Kaizen

                                                                                          Kaizen

                                                                                        • Functions

                                                                                          Functions

                                                                                        • Meetups

                                                                                          Meetups

                                                                                        • Kbase

                                                                                          Kbase

                                                                                        • Resources

                                                                                          Resources

                                                                                        • Digest

                                                                                          Digest

                                                                                        • CRM Marketplace

                                                                                          CRM Marketplace

                                                                                        • MVP Corner

                                                                                          MVP Corner









                                                                                            Design. Discuss. Deliver.

                                                                                            Create visually engaging stories with Zoho Show.

                                                                                            Get Started Now


                                                                                              Zoho Show Resources

                                                                                                Zoho Writer

                                                                                                Get Started. Write Away!

                                                                                                Writer is a powerful online word processor, designed for collaborative work.

                                                                                                  Zoho CRM コンテンツ



                                                                                                    Nederlandse Hulpbronnen


                                                                                                        ご検討中の方




                                                                                                                • Recent Topics

                                                                                                                • Pick List Issues

                                                                                                                  I have created a pick list that looks at a table in a sheet, it selects the column I want fine. Various issues have come along. The option to sort the pick list is simplistic, only allows an ascending alphabetical sort. Bad luck if you want it descending.
                                                                                                                • Four types of task dependencies

                                                                                                                  "Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs."                                                                                                                  - Henry Ford Projects, small or large, are driven by simple work units called tasks. Monitoring standalone tasks might look simple but as the workflow becomes elaborate, tasks may start relying on one another. In project management, this relationship between tasks is termed as "Task Dependencies". Dependency between tasks arise
                                                                                                                • 1099 tracking

                                                                                                                  Do zoho books offer feature of tracking for 1099's for contractors, etc? Quick books offers this feature and wondered when/if Zoho books will do same
                                                                                                                • VAT-type Taxes in US Edition?

                                                                                                                  I'm located in the US, and I use the Zoho One US edition of Books. We are in the process of registering with Canadian authorities for their GST / HST, which is a VAT-type of scheme. It is not immediately obvious to me how one would deal with input tax
                                                                                                                • Schedule sms to be sent later

                                                                                                                  When will you make available an option to send sms's at a later time??? You finaly have this option available on emails, so it will be very useful to have it also with sms. Our sms provider, has already this available but we cannot use it because you
                                                                                                                • Ecommerce integration with prestashop

                                                                                                                  Development of campaigns integration with prestahop. When???
                                                                                                                • How to create an article containing images and rich text via the api?

                                                                                                                  Hi, I'm trying to migrate our kb articles from our previous helpdesk service, and import them to ZohoDesk. Is there any way to create an article that contains images?  Is it possible to add formatting to articles created via the API? Thanks, Adam.
                                                                                                                • Number of statement execution limit exceeded on deluge scheduled function

                                                                                                                  I'm working on a send email functionality in creator that sends out crew work orders at the end of the day each day for the next day. I'm running into the issue that zoho is unable to handle the number of statements that I am doing to be able to successfully
                                                                                                                • Zoho SignForm In Progress But Cannot Be Completed

                                                                                                                  If a person starts signing a document (via SignForm), but closes the window before submitting, Zoho marks the document "in progress", but how do they finish signing it?
                                                                                                                • How to show Assemblies AND component items in a report

                                                                                                                  Hi Is there any way in Analytics to create a report that shows the Composite Item AND the Component Items with mapped quantity? It seems that the component item is not exposed in any table that I can find. Also, the same question but for Stock on Hand.....this
                                                                                                                • Mandatory Messages for Specific Members in Zoho Cliq Channels

                                                                                                                  Hello Zoho Cliq Team, We hope you're doing well. We would like to request a feature enhancement to Zoho Cliq that would allow marking certain messages in a channel as mandatory for specific members — with built-in tracking and reminders. 🎯 Use Case:
                                                                                                                • Admin Access to Message Read Statistics in Zoho Cliq

                                                                                                                  Hello Zoho Cliq Team, We hope you're doing well. We would like to request a feature enhancement that would allow admins or channel owners to view read/unread statistics for messages, even if they were not the original sender. 🎯 Use Case: Currently, in
                                                                                                                • Online Member Visibility in Channels (Similar to WhatsApp Group Presence)

                                                                                                                  Hello Zoho Cliq Team, We hope you're doing well. We’d like to request an enhancement to Zoho Cliq’s channel experience by introducing online presence indicators for channel members — similar to how WhatsApp shows how many people in a group are currently
                                                                                                                • Show ticket field in Zoho Desk only if that same field is not empty (API‑created records)

                                                                                                                  Zoho Team , We have a ticket workflow where every ticket is created via API based on dynamic logic from an external form. That form has complex logic and already decides what’s relevant to ask, and the API only populates fields in Zoho Desk based on that
                                                                                                                • Multiple Products on Ticket

                                                                                                                  Good morning. We will classify all tickets based on the product. Users sometimes send different requests on the same ticket, so we are facing some challenges. Is there a way to add more than one product to the ticket, or is there a way to tie the product
                                                                                                                • Não recebo Email de confirmação e validação de cadastro do PagSeguro

                                                                                                                  Olá, utilizei uma das minhas contas de email Zoho para criar um cadastro no PagSeguro, contigo o email com o link de confirmação da conta não chega no meu email Zoho (nem.ma caixa de spam, nem na lixeira, e nem em outras pastas). Outros emails do PagSeguro
                                                                                                                • accounts payable and receivable subaccounts

                                                                                                                  How to create accounts payable and receivable subaccounts? Being that I have several clients and in my balance sheet have to specify the accounts of each client and not only appear "accounts receivable or accounts payable" ??
                                                                                                                • DUPLICATING WORKFLOWS IN CREATOR

                                                                                                                  Hi all, I want to duplicate and slightly amend 3 workflows in Creator so that I don't have to keep typing in all the rules and properties each time. I can see lots of videos on CRM with the 3 dots at the top of the workflow, but nothing like that in Creator.
                                                                                                                • Add SKU to query options in `items` API endpoint

                                                                                                                  It would be very useful to be able to pull items by SKU in the API as this is a commonly used unique ID that tends to be consistent across systems.
                                                                                                                • Estimates and invoices being sent from company-wide address, rather than individual

                                                                                                                  In our organization, team members send estimates and invoices through Zoho Books by using the "Send Email" function. However, for certain users, the system defaults to sending estimates and invoices from a shared organizational email address (e.g., company@example.com)
                                                                                                                • Need profit margins for books in estimates & invoice

                                                                                                                  https://help.zoho.com/portal/en/community/topic/show-my-cost-or-profit-while-creating-estimate
                                                                                                                • Item Level Notifications

                                                                                                                  I need to create a custom workflow based on the creation of an estimate that has a SKU/Item name that matches certain criteria. I can have it generated based on a total amount, but not at the item level. Is this possible?
                                                                                                                • Cannot categorize a bank deposit to an income sub-account

                                                                                                                  When I go to categorize a bank deposit, I am not able to see any income sub-accounts. If I set up an income account without a parent, then I am able to categorize a transaction into that account, but as soon as I make it a child account, it disappears
                                                                                                                • ZV Extension passkey changes in v5.7.0

                                                                                                                  Has there any changes to the how passkeys are managed in ZV - Chrome extensions v5.7.0? Namely, if the passkeys were already implemented/enforced as 2FA on a certain webpage, but ZV does not track them yet. Would that be the issue for my use case?
                                                                                                                • What's New in Zoho Billing - August 2025

                                                                                                                  Hello everyone, We are excited to share the latest updates and enhancements made to Zoho Billing in August 2025 to improve your overall billing management experience. Keep reading to learn more. Notify Customers About Subscriptions via WhatsApp Business
                                                                                                                • Why are tasks not showing in Zoho Calendar?

                                                                                                                  Hi there, I updated the Zoho calendar preferences for Task records to show on the calendar together with Meetings and Calls - see attached screenshot. Despite of that, Task records still won't show on the calendar. Is there a specific reason why this
                                                                                                                • Zoho Payroll: Product Updates - July 2025

                                                                                                                  Over the past month, we've focused on making Zoho Payroll more flexible, compliant, and easier to use—whether you're processing complex payouts, ensuring accurate calculations, or meeting local tax regulations. Here's what's new: One-Time Payments and
                                                                                                                • Discussion for “sub product”, “sub item” or “child products”

                                                                                                                  Hello everyone, In some CRM systems, there is the ability to associate products in a hierarchical manner within a quote. For example: Product A: Gold Plan Product B: Setup Product C: Connector Product D: Silver Plan Product B: Setup Product C: Connector
                                                                                                                • Retrieve Accidental Deleted User

                                                                                                                  Is there a way to undelete a user who accidentally deleted themselves?
                                                                                                                • Request for Support - CRM Integration Issues

                                                                                                                  I’m reaching out to request assistance with the following items: 1. Zoho Forms Integration with Zoho CRM We are currently using Zoho Forms to send the Global Credit Application form to our customers. The intended workflow is for the form submissions to
                                                                                                                • Knowledge Base Module

                                                                                                                  How to enable the knowledge base module in zoho crm account. I saw this module in one crm account but unable to find it other zoho crm account. can anyone know about this?
                                                                                                                • Zoho sign changed Indexing of signing_order

                                                                                                                  Because I missed this Announcement (is there even one?): when you work with the indexes of actions > signing_order. Previous those started with 0 now starts with 1. Changed somewhere between 15.07 and 23.07
                                                                                                                • How to Invoice Based on Timesheet Hours Logged on a Zoho FSM Work Order

                                                                                                                  Hi everyone, We’re working on optimizing our invoicing process in Zoho FSM, and we’ve run into a bit of a roadblock. Here’s our goal: We want to invoice based on the actual number of hours logged by our technicians on a job, specifically using the timesheets
                                                                                                                • Zoho CRM Community Digest - June 2025 | Part 2

                                                                                                                  Welcome back to the Zoho CRM Community Digest! We’re wrapping up June with more fresh updates, smart discussions, and clever workarounds shared by the community. Product Updates: Struggling to keep track of scattered customer interactions? Zoho CRM's
                                                                                                                • Allow Variable Insertion in Prebuilt "Update Record" Action in Schedules

                                                                                                                  Hi Zoho Creator Team, Hope you're doing well. We’d like to submit a feature request based on our experience using Zoho Creator schedules to manage workflows integrated with Zoho Desk. We currently have an app where Zoho Desk tickets create records in
                                                                                                                • Rich Text Field Editor in Form Builder is Too Small and Not Resizable

                                                                                                                  Hello, I am experiencing a significant usability issue with the rich text field in the Zoho Forms builder. The editor window for this field is fixed-size and extremely small. It does not adapt to the screen size, which makes it very difficult to manage
                                                                                                                • Publicar Formulário

                                                                                                                  Obs. Não consigo publicar meus formulários, pesquisei alguns artigos, mas me deixou perdido, fala de campo sensível, não consigo entender o que significa. Segue Imagem do problema. Todo formulário que faço sempre termina assim sem o botão de publicar..
                                                                                                                • Anyone else unable to login to ZMA this weekend?

                                                                                                                  Hey Is anyone else unable to log into Zoho Marketing Automation at all this weekend? I've been trying on multiple devices - despot and mobile - and multiple browser. I've reset browsing data, gone incognito. Nothing - since Friday I've been unable to
                                                                                                                • Custom Action for Subform row

                                                                                                                  Dears, As for now, we only have 2 actions for each subform row: Edit and Delete. I would suggest to have custom action here, instead of create a button with Fx field within the subform. For example, I would create Duplicate button, which duplicates the
                                                                                                                • Urgent: Unable to Receive OTP Email for Portal User Registration in Zoho Creator

                                                                                                                  I paid to enable the Portal User feature on 2/25, and followed the official instructions (Youtube video: Customer Portals | Zoho Creator) to set up the Portal User using my Gmail account. However, I am not receiving the OTP email and am unable to successfully
                                                                                                                • Next Page