Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

Cannot Access Subform Display Order in Deluge

As highlighted in this community post, we still have to deal with the significant limitation of not being able to access the user-sorted order of subform rows through Deluge. This creates a major disconnect between the UI capabilities and backend automation, and I'm hoping the Zoho team can address this in a future update.

The Issue
Zoho Creator now offers two distinct subform sorting methods:
  • Drag and drop: Manual, user-controlled sorting where users reorder rows by dragging them into their preferred sequence. The sort order is arbitrary and based on user preference, not field values.
  • By predefined column: Automatic, system-controlled sorting based on a specified column that happens whenever the record is created or updated. The sort order is predictable and based on field values.
However, these sorted orders are completely invisible to Deluge scripts. When you iterate through subform rows using for each loops, you get the records in their original creation order—regardless of whether the subform uses drag-and-drop sorting or automatic column-based sorting.

The Problem
Regardless of which sorting method is configured, the display order is trapped in the UI layer—Deluge has no way to access it.
Sorting Method What User Sees What Deluge Sees Result
Drag and Drop
User drags Row 5 to position 1
Row 5 appears at the top of the subform Row 5 is still in position 5 (creation order) ✗ Custom order completely ignored
Predefined Column
Subform set to sort by "Priority" (High to Low)
Rows automatically displayed in priority order after save Original creation order (Row 1, Row 2, Row 3...) ✗ Automatic sorting not reflected
Either Method
User clicks "Generate Report" button
Expects report to match displayed order Report generated in creation order ✗ Output doesn't match user's view
Current Limitations
Regardless of which sorting method is enabled, you cannot:
  • Loop through subform rows in the display order (whether drag-and-drop or predefined column)
  • Access any "sort order" or "display position" field
  • Determine which column is used for automatic sorting
  • Detect if drag-and-drop sorting is enabled
  • Update a field (like "Sequence Number") to reflect the sorted order
  • Generate custom reports in Pages or Deluge that respect the subform's display order
Important Note: Record Templates do preserve the re-sorted order when generating PDFs or documents. This means basic reporting through record templates works correctly. However, for any advanced reporting—such as custom HTML in Deluge, Pages, or programmatic data processing—the sorted order is completely inaccessible, making it impossible to replicate what record templates can do.
Example: The Disconnect
Here's a real-world scenario that demonstrates the problem:
// SCENARIO: Task subform is configured to sort by "Priority" column (High to Low)
// This is automatic sorting - happens when record is created/updated
// User clicks a button to "Generate Prioritized Task List"

// What the developer writes:
for each task in input.Task_Subform
{
    task_list = task_list + task.Task_Name + "\n";
}

// EXPECTED OUTPUT (what user sees on screen after save):
// 1. Fix critical bug (High)
// 2. Review code (High)  
// 3. Update documentation (Medium)
// 4. Refactor old code (Low)

// ACTUAL OUTPUT (what Deluge produces):
// 1. Update documentation (Medium)     ← Created first
// 2. Fix critical bug (High)           ← Created second  
// 3. Refactor old code (Low)           ← Created third
// 4. Review code (High)                ← Created fourth

// Result: User confusion and loss of trust in the system
// Note: The same problem occurs with drag-and-drop sorting!
Impact: The generated output doesn't match what the user sees on screen, creating confusion and undermining user confidence. This affects both automatic sorting (by predefined column) and manual sorting (drag-and-drop).
Attempted Workarounds (All Inadequate)
Workaround Approach Implementation Problems Status
Manual Sequence Field Add a "Sequence" number field that users manually update - Requires users to manually type numbers
- Defeats purpose of drag-and-drop sorting
- Doesn't work with predefined column sorting
- Prone to errors and gaps
- Poor user experience
✗ Not viable for real-world use
Sort in Deluge Instead Use Deluge's .sort() function on subform collection - Only works if you know the predefined sort column
- Cannot replicate custom drag-and-drop order at all
- Assumes single-column sorting
- Doesn't help if user needs multi-column sort
- Still a workaround for what should be automatic
⚠ Partial solution for predefined column only
JavaScript Widget Build custom UI using JavaScript Widget instead of native form - Requires abandoning native form entirely
- Must rebuild entire subform interface from scratch
- Significant development and maintenance overhead
- Loses all native form features and functionality
- Defeats the purpose of using Creator's built-in forms
✗ Not viable - abandons native functionality
What Should Happen Instead
Proposed Solution 1: Display Order Field Add a system-generated field that reflects the current display order:
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order")
{
    // Process tasks in the order the user sees them
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Proposed Solution 2: Sort State Information Provide access to the current sort configuration and type:
sort_info = input.Task_Subform.getSortState();
// Returns: 
// {"type": "predefined_column", "column": "Priority", "direction": "desc"}
// or {"type": "drag_and_drop"}

if(sort_info.get("type") == "drag_and_drop")
{
    // Drag-and-drop enabled, access via display_order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_order");
}
else if(sort_info.get("type") == "predefined_column")
{
    // Predefined column sorting, replicate that sort
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform.sortBy(sort_info.get("column"), sort_info.get("direction"));
}
else
{
    // No sorting configured, use creation order
    sorted_tasks = input.Task_Subform;
}
Proposed Solution 3: Built-in Sort Preservation Automatically update a hidden "display_sequence" field whenever the display order changes (whether through predefined column sorting or drag-and-drop), making it accessible to Deluge:
// System automatically maintains display_sequence field for both sorting methods
for each task in input.Task_Subform.sortBy("display_sequence")
{
    // Always iterates in display order
    // Works regardless of sorting method (predefined column or drag-and-drop)
    info task.Task_Name;
}
Any of these solutions would bridge the gap between UI capabilities and backend automation for both sorting methods.
Real-World Impact
This limitation affects critical business processes:
  • Project Management (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts tasks by priority, but automated status reports generate in creation order, not priority order
  • Meeting Agendas (Drag and Drop): Users arrange agenda items manually via drag-and-drop, but generated PDF shows items in original entry order
  • Invoice Line Items (Drag and Drop): Users reorder line items for presentation purposes, but printed invoices ignore the arrangement
  • Course Curriculum (Predefined Column or Drag and Drop): Instructors order lessons logically (either by lesson number or manual arrangement), but student-facing materials display in database order
  • Checklist Applications (Predefined Column): Subform automatically sorts by due date or priority, but automated reminders follow original creation order
  • Product Catalogs (Drag and Drop): Users arrange products by preference or featured status, but exports and integrations ignore the curation

User Experience Impact: Whether using predefined column sorting (automatic) or drag-and-drop sorting (manual), when users see data in a particular order on screen and the system's automation ignores it, it creates frustration and erodes trust. Users expect that if they can see data in a certain order, the system should be able to work with it in that order.

Request to Zoho Team

Can this be addressed in a future update?

This is a fundamental disconnect between what users see in the UI and what developers can access in code. Both sorting methods (predefined column and drag-and-drop) suffer from this limitation. The current implementation forces developers to choose between:

1. Disable Sorting
Remove sorting capabilities (both predefined column and drag-and-drop) to avoid user confusion when automation doesn't respect display order
2. Accept Mismatch
Allow users to sort but acknowledge that automation will produce unexpected results

Neither option is acceptable for professional applications.

Community Input Requested: Has anyone else encountered this limitation or found a reliable workaround? This affects any application where subform ordering matters to end users.


    Access your files securely from anywhere







                            Zoho Developer Community




                                                  • Desk Community Learning Series


                                                  • Digest


                                                  • Functions


                                                  • Meetups


                                                  • Kbase


                                                  • Resources


                                                  • Glossary


                                                  • Desk Marketplace


                                                  • MVP Corner


                                                  • Word of the Day


                                                  • Ask the Experts





                                                            Manage your brands on social media



                                                                  Zoho TeamInbox Resources



                                                                      Zoho CRM Plus Resources

                                                                        Zoho Books Resources


                                                                          Zoho Subscriptions Resources

                                                                            Zoho Projects Resources


                                                                              Zoho Sprints Resources


                                                                                Qntrl Resources


                                                                                  Zoho Creator Resources



                                                                                      Zoho CRM Resources

                                                                                      • CRM Community Learning Series

                                                                                        CRM Community Learning Series


                                                                                      • Kaizen

                                                                                        Kaizen

                                                                                      • Functions

                                                                                        Functions

                                                                                      • Meetups

                                                                                        Meetups

                                                                                      • Kbase

                                                                                        Kbase

                                                                                      • Resources

                                                                                        Resources

                                                                                      • Digest

                                                                                        Digest

                                                                                      • CRM Marketplace

                                                                                        CRM Marketplace

                                                                                      • MVP Corner

                                                                                        MVP Corner









                                                                                          Design. Discuss. Deliver.

                                                                                          Create visually engaging stories with Zoho Show.

                                                                                          Get Started Now


                                                                                            Zoho Show Resources

                                                                                              Zoho Writer

                                                                                              Get Started. Write Away!

                                                                                              Writer is a powerful online word processor, designed for collaborative work.

                                                                                                Zoho CRM コンテンツ



                                                                                                  Nederlandse Hulpbronnen


                                                                                                      ご検討中の方




                                                                                                              • Recent Topics

                                                                                                              • Zoho CRM Reports Module on Mobil App

                                                                                                                I have the mobile app and the reports module doesn't appear in the sidebar for some reason. I saw a Youtube video where the user had the Reports module on mobile. Is there a setting to show it on mobile? Thanks.
                                                                                                              • Inquiry on Help Centre Tab Customisation

                                                                                                                Hi Zoho team, I’m wondering if it’s possible to further customise the Help Center tabs, specifically the descriptions under Knowledge Base, Community, and Tickets. While the current setup allows customising tab names, being able to tailor the descriptions
                                                                                                              • Passing a form object to a function

                                                                                                                Suppose I have a sort_order field in multiple tables and I want to increment it by +1 onCreate of a new record. Is there a way to pass the form object as an argument into the function to keep things DRY? The following function from Zia works, but I'd
                                                                                                              • Can you copy and paste a page within a form?

                                                                                                                I have been looking at trying to copy/duplicate a whole page within a form. I can't see how I can do this without having to add all the data in again. This is very time consuming. Any help would be great.
                                                                                                              • Unable to sort as Descending order

                                                                                                                Trying to change the sort order for a lookup field (checkboxes) from Ascending to Descending and keep getting an error in Deluge that the order must be Ascending Did anyone ran into this? Thanks Eyal
                                                                                                              • How do I copy an email message to one or more other folders?

                                                                                                                I can move a message to another folder using the "move to" option but I can't figure out how to copy a message. 
                                                                                                              • New feature request: Allow copy of email message to another folder

                                                                                                                Hello Zoho team, This is a suggested new feature to allow copy an email message to either another folder or the same folder. Within the same Zoho account. This is not a support request about "label". This is a suggested new feature to allow copies of
                                                                                                              • Hotmail is blocking the zoho mail IP

                                                                                                                Greetings, Since last Tuesday (5 days ago today) I wrote to Zoho support and I still haven't received a single response (Ticket ID: 2056917). Is this how you treat people who pay for your email service? I am making this public so that those who want to
                                                                                                              • Creator Simplified #11: Create a custom button to download files

                                                                                                                Hey there! This time, let's see how to create custom buttons to download the files uploaded in the file upload field. Sample use-case A training app has a module that provides the materials for all the available courses. Students can click on the corresponding
                                                                                                              • Hide horizontal lines at bottom of form

                                                                                                                Hi I have a page with 3 forms embedded in html snippets. On each of the forms I can hide the submit button easily but I am left with the horizontal lines that bound that section and I cannot figure out to remove them (see below for the two sets of horizontal
                                                                                                              • Autosaving of Form Field

                                                                                                                HI can anyone suggest a way of autosaving or simulating an autosave function for a specific field in a form. The story is as follows. I have a bunch of technicians who write notes on how they do a repair. Sometimes they write for a couple of hours the troubleshooting process. If they click incorrectly, press ESC, Cancel or the browser crashes the information is lost which can be heartbreaking so my guys use notepad and then copy the information in. The only way around this is to click submit on the
                                                                                                              • Ask the Experts 26: Brighten every customer interaction with Zoho Desk all year long

                                                                                                                Hello everyone, Greetings and welcome to Ask the Experts 26. As we wrap up 2025, we are excited to invite you to the 26th episode of our Ask the Expert series. 🎄The Merry Metrics Edition = Best of Zoho Desk [Best Practices + Holiday Automation + Year-End
                                                                                                              • Pricing calculator

                                                                                                                Alright, so I'm trying to create a pricing calculator/pricing report generator to use in a cabinet shop. I did all the logic and such, and the calculator works. I have a few other things that I would need it to be able to do though, I'll do my best to
                                                                                                              • Bug Details

                                                                                                                In the Bug detail the milestoneid is missing
                                                                                                              • Stop completed task lists from disappearing?

                                                                                                                Is there any way to stop projects from making tasks lists disappear when all the tasks in the list are completed? That's one of those little things where we're constantly fighting the product. For instance we have some projects which are ongoing - no start and end date. We use Kanban view to show the various task lists. We don't want the kanban list to disappear every time the items on it happen to be closed out. Thanks
                                                                                                              • Allow customers to choose meeting venue and meeting duration on booking page

                                                                                                                My business primarily involves one-to-one meetings with my clients. Given the hybrid-work world we now find ourselves in, these meetings can take several forms (which I think of as the meeting "venue"): In-person Zoom Phone call I currently handle these
                                                                                                              • Booking outside of scheduled availability

                                                                                                                Is there a way for staff (such as the secretary) to book appointments outside of the scheduled availability? Right now to do this special hours must be set each time. There should be a quicker way. Am I missing something?
                                                                                                              • Operation Questions.

                                                                                                                Hello, I hope you are well. To explain a little, we are a company that sells services and products with a technical team responsible for installation and maintenance. Zoho FSM can be useful for the technical team, namely for the technical coordinator
                                                                                                              • Direct Access and Better Search for Zoho Quartz Recordings

                                                                                                                Hi Zoho Team, We would like to request a few enhancements to improve how Zoho Quartz recordings are accessed and managed after being submitted to Zoho Support. Current Limitation: After submitting a Quartz recording, the related Zoho Support ticket displays
                                                                                                              • Update date & time when a cell is edited

                                                                                                                Hi All, I am desiring to have a cell update with the current date and time when another cell is edited. Any ideas?  Thank you
                                                                                                              • Add "Groups" to "Share With" on Reports & All Entries

                                                                                                                Hi, On Forms we can share Publicly, with Specific Users And/Or Specific Groups or All Users. With Reports and All Entries we lack the "Groups" option, please add this as with many users this saves a lot of work. Thanks Dan
                                                                                                              • Add Pause / Resume Option to Zoho Quartz Recordings

                                                                                                                Hi Zoho Team, We would like to request an enhancement to Zoho Quartz recordings: the ability to pause and resume an ongoing recording. Current Limitation: At the moment, when recording an issue with Zoho Quartz, the recording continues even when we are
                                                                                                              • Custom Fields Not Showing Up in Invoice PDF Template Document Information

                                                                                                                I have added 2 custom fields under Sales > Invoices > Manage Custom Fields. They are set to show in all PDFs. However when I am editing my Invoice PDF template, i do not see the custom fields under Document Information.
                                                                                                              • ZOHO Books

                                                                                                                Hi there, Why after I upgrade my Zoho invoice > Books then i wanted to add plugin which i cannot do. Please advise.
                                                                                                              • How is Your eCommerce Experience w/Zoho Inventory?

                                                                                                                First off, I'm SUPER grateful for the advent of Zoho Inventory and now the Zoho Commerce Suite. Overall, Inventory is a great product, especially for customers without an eCommerce presence. For eCommerce companies (especially those shipping more than ~10 packages/day), however, there are certain drawbacks that keep my clients from moving over to Zoho Inventory: Cons: 1. Invoice + Package Creation from Shopify/Other eCommerce Integrations: Zoho Inventory makes the somewhat perplexing decision to
                                                                                                              • Simplify Mass Replies with Predefined Templates and Snippets

                                                                                                                Hello everyone, We are happy to introduce a new enhancement to Mass Reply that helps agents respond to customers quickly and consistently. With the addition of Email Templates and Snippets in the reply window, agents can use predefined messages while
                                                                                                              • Mapping custom fields from one module to another

                                                                                                                I have a custom field, "Subscription Period" that appears as a required field in every Opportunity (Potential). I want that field to appear on any Quotes derived from that Opportunity (and have created a custom field of the same name in Quotes for that
                                                                                                              • The Social Wall: November 2025

                                                                                                                We’re nearing the end of the year, and the holiday season is officially kicking in! It’s that time when sales peak and your social media game needs to be stronger than ever. We’re back with exciting new updates across AI, analytics, and the mobile app
                                                                                                              • Item name special charaters <>

                                                                                                                Im trying to input speical characters such as < and > into item name and item description but comes up with following error: Invalid value passed for Item Name and Invalid value passed for Item Description How do i allow speical characters?
                                                                                                              • How to update Multi File upload field

                                                                                                                Assume that i have a multi file upload field,how can i update the same field again?
                                                                                                              • Customer Address Not on Standard Invoice when Address is on Contact Record

                                                                                                                Hi,  I entered the customer billing and shipping address in Zoho CRM. I created an invoice in Zoho Books with the same customer contact. The contact is correctly in Zoho Books with the billing and shipping address. The invoice for the customer does not
                                                                                                              • Apply partial payments to invoices from the Banking Module

                                                                                                                We need this! Why is this not possible?
                                                                                                              • Welcome to the Zoho Show Community Forums page!

                                                                                                                Hello everyone, The Zoho Show community is a place for you to discuss and share anything and everything related to Zoho Show Presentations, our online presentation software. It includes users from all over the globe and all walks of life. Our community helps answer your Zoho Show questions with responses from other knowledgeable community members to give you the best experience creating and designing exciting presentations. Along the way, you'll meet recognized experts from our software team and
                                                                                                              • How can I convert an existing contact into a lead?

                                                                                                                I imported many contacts into ZOHO CRM. In order to select a few of them as leads, I want to mark or convert a few hundred as Leads. Who can I do that?
                                                                                                              • Price book functionality enhancement

                                                                                                                A common use of price books is to create a price book for a given customer level or contract with a specific company. Given that this is done at a company/customer level it would be great to see a way to associate a price book to a given customer and
                                                                                                              • Can we have 24x7 live support for Zohobooks ?

                                                                                                                Can we have 24x7 live support for Zohobooks ?
                                                                                                              • Important update about notification security in Business Messaging SDK

                                                                                                                As part of our ongoing effort to strengthen the security of notification data, we have enhanced how notifications are processed and protected in our applications. These improvements ensure that all notification related data follows the most up-to-date
                                                                                                              • Sync Zoho Marketing Automation with Zoho Forms

                                                                                                                I can't find a section where the integration between Zoho Marketing Automation and Zoho form is explained. And how form subscription works with opt-in and consents.
                                                                                                              • What is the difference between Zoho Campaigns and marketing hub?

                                                                                                                Zoho Campaigns is a permission-based email marketing tool for sending marketing emails and mass emails. Marketing Automation is a multichannel marketing automation tool that caters to organizations looking for tools to engage their users across multiple
                                                                                                              • Webhook not firing.

                                                                                                                I created a webhook using the Web UI, it looks very nice and the testing worked without an issue, but when i save/ update a ticket, the webhook is not firing. Here are the details of the web-hook i get from using the API "modifiedTime": "2019-10-22T09:23:37.380Z",
                                                                                                              • Next Page